England players over 30

[Scrumhead]

Just seen this article on Rugby Pass: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/seven-en ... t-by-2023/ hot on the heels of a very similar one on Ruck: https://www.ruck.co.uk/four-past-it-pla ... d-again/4/

The Rugby Pass article seems to be taking a blanket view that anyone over 30 is automatically under threat for their place, while the Ruck article is a bit more form related.

Generally, I’m less concerned about age and more about form and skill set.

Of the players mentioned across the two articles, I wouldn’t have too much debate on Wilson or JJ. Both have been very good players for England but with younger, potentially better players making strong cases to be included, I think their time has probably passed.

I don’t think there’s any question that Lawes and Launchbury are still two of our best locks and, at this point in time, there’s nothing to suggest they won’t be in 2yrs either. As long as their bodies hold up, I see not reason to replace them solely on account of age.

Rugby Pass mentioning George and Marler is a bit strange for me. A lot of front row players play their best rugby over 30 and like the locks, I’d expect both to be at least in contention for the RWC squad. I know Marler is more of a 50:50 on the travel front, but assuming we’re in a better place with COVID, a RWC in France is geographically about as close to home as it gets.

The most interesting one for me is Jonny May. Both seem to want to call time on him which I find a bit premature.

He doesn’t have great form (along with most of the Gloucester squad), but pretty much has the full range of skills a top class winger needs.

Even if he’s lost a yard of pace he was so quick to begin with he’s still faster than almost every other winger we have. His ability under the high ball and his positioning in defence are also better than all but Watson IMO. We have several promising wingers, but most of them have pretty obvious areas to work on. I’m 100% open to giving them the time and exposure to improve, but I don’t think that necessitates canning May.

Also worth noting that he’s widely known as one of the most dedicated trainers and the way he’s evolved his game is a great example for the younger wingers. Even if he’s no longer a nailed on starter, he’s worth keeping in the squad to work with the less experienced guys.

Generally, I do wonder if we look at age a bit too arbitrarily. Over the years, NZ (Whitelock, Kaino, Mealamu, Read), SA (Brits, Matfield) and Australia (Fardy) seem to be happy enough to keep selecting older players if they’re among the best options. In recent times, we seem to put players out to pasture pretty early.

[Puja]

Bang on. I think there's a lot of people in the press celebrating the ascension of Adam Radwan on the basis of scoring a hattrick against Canada, which isn't exactly a difficult task. Granted, May needs to buck up his ideas for Gloucester this coming season, but I don't recall him having a bad game for England of late and he's only "dropped" in the sense that he was given a rest over the summer. 30 is way too arbitrary a number to be calling for his removal.

Same with BillyV - the talent is there, if he applies it. You wouldn't be binning him on age, only if he doesn't get his form back together.

Puja

[Mr Mwenda]

Yes, May wasn't really dropped and should have been with the Lions. If he keeps this level of effectiveness and contribution the next couple of years at international level he could be the back 3 whose position is most secure.

[Scrumhead]

Yep. 100% agree.

Billy is a tricky one. He’s had a long time off and based upon his behaviour/habits in the past, it’s very possible that isn’t a good thing.

Saracens will be missing plenty of their frontline players so this is an ideal opportunity for him to step up and lead by example. He might well do that, but I think it’s at least equally likely that he’s lost what fitness he had and needs half a season to get up to speed/play his way into form.

I don’t know if he has that luxury with other players breathing down his neck.

If he were to miss out on the squad for the AIs, I don’t know how he’d react? We know he struggles with motivation and in the event of him being dropped, I wonder whether he’d have the fight to win his place back?

[Dan. Dan. Dan.]

While May by no means shat the bed during the 6N (at least not as much as others or the team collectively), I think I said at the time that I can see him as someone Eddie might want to replace before the World Cup.
Not necessarily age related, more to do with how they are/were trying to play. I feel like the whole Odogwu training camp thing was a big sign as to what Eddie wants in at least one of the wings. With the quick ball game and the centres that we have, I think he's looking for an explosive and physical wing who will break through tackles and play much more through the centre on attack. I think (someone said?) Odogwu didn't play because of fitness and defence, but I wouldn't be suprised to see him and Cokanisiga get playing time in the next two years.
Not saying in necessarily agree, I can just see it coming...

[FKAS]

I agree, I think the idea of canning May is a bit premature. He's certainly under pressure for his position but given the depth of talent we have on the wings he always should be. Watson is no different, whilst he was one of the few to come out the 6Ns with any credit a mediocre Lions performance highlighted his ability to have a bad day under the high ball. Now I'd have them pencilled in for the big games this Autumn because they have reliably been quality for England over a period of time but should their form tail off then there's a number of young options breathing down their necks.

Billy V will be definitely one feeling the heat but he's an Eddie favourite so will be given a chance for redemption.

Eddie has talked about the world cup cycle and needing to being down the average age of the squad as a whole. I think that generally means clearing out squad players over 30 but not those that are regular starters. It's the likes of Wilson that are facing the chop though the squad is pretty young already.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah it was strange watching him be basically the best winger in the world for quite a while, then have a relatively poor 6 nations behind a turgid England side and he’s completely done for.

With the weirdness of the last 2 seasons it’s very hard to judge who is just a bit knackered/burnt out.

[Which Tyler]

Agreed as above.
Marler is still our best Loosehead, and props can go long into their 30s
George might find himself on the bench more with LCD really kicking on - but he's still plenty effective, and there's no-one else snapping at his heels.
Launch and Lawes are still 2 of our 3 best locks, with the next generation currently looking to be a step down.
Wilson - pity he was "discovered" late, but there's plenty of competition, and he's had a decent innings despite that.
JJ is still a useful player, but we've got plenty of 13s, and his personal form doesn't justify selection, regardless of age.
May is too good to be discarded on age alone - but he does need to find some (club) form to justify selection.

The other thing I'd say with the older players, and this is me as a fan, I'd probably disagree with myself were I coach - the older established players like the above... you're not going to learn anything new about them by playing them again now; but you may just speed up the introduction of the next generation by leaving them out. You could always spend a year without those old heads, safe in the knowledge that they can come back in if the youngsters fail to take their chances.
I'd keep the older 1st choice players in the squad, and drop the older backups; but tend to put the older starters on the bench (except Marler)



BillyV...
We know he has difficulty motivating himself in training, so I'd imagine that 18 months of playing meaningless rugby will take it's toll on his fitness and he'll take some time to get back up there performance wise. Performance wise, he hasn't justifying his place since RWC2019. He must have used all of his credit in the bank by now. But we know he's got the talent - he just needs to show it, for club, and then we can talk about selecting him for country. Zach may have chosen precisely the wrong year to move to France, as, if Eddie agrees, he's taken himself out of contention at just the moment he may have pushed his case.
Further with Billy, I think we're going to be looking at what we want from our 8, and how we balance the back row and back 5, given the players around them.
We saw some promise (poorly executed as yet) that we're looking for a faster gameplan, moving the point of attack and requiring insanely high fitness / mobility levels from out back 5 - which... isn't really Billy's forte; but could play into the hands of 8s like Mercer, Donbrandt or Willis. If we couple that with Ford and Smith at FH pulling the shots and making the decisions based on that - hopefully allowing Youngs ( ) to play on instinct, rather than over-thinking things. IF we do that, and find a way around the road-block in the 12 shirt (sod it, let's play Barbeary and Simmonds there, it'd still be a step up) then it looks very exciting for England; but not really a game-plan suited to Billy (though it may bring Simmonds closer - depending on balance 4-7).

I'd also say that Slade really needs to prove his worth at this level. He's got 38 caps, and still plays like he's in his second international window - inconsitent and insecure. With Lawrence and Marchant snapping at his heels - I'd be tempted to play both of them alongside each other, and leave Slade on the bench!


1. Marler, 2. LCD, 3. Sinckler
4. Itoje, 5. Iseikwe
6. Curry, 7. Underhill, 8. Donbrandt

9. Youngs ( ), 10. Ford
12. Lawrence, 13. Slade
11. Watson, 14. Radwan, 15. Malins

16. George, 17. Mako/Genge, 18. Stuart, 17. Launchbury, 18. Willis
19. FlavourOfTheMonth, 20. Smith, 21. May

[FKAS]

I can't see Marler returning to international rugby. He seems happier playing for Quins and doing media work. If it gives him a better work/life balance then fair enough really.

I'd say hooker could end up being ridiculously competitive by the next world cup. I was very impressed by young Blamire in the summer and though he's too raw to be a genuine option now I'd still have him as the third hooker in the squad and look to develop him. He's very reminiscent of a young Jamie George.

[Mellsblue]

I can't see Marler returning to international rugby. He seems happier playing for Quins and doing media work. If it gives him a better work/life balance then fair enough really.

He made himself available for/to the Lions….

[Mellsblue]

The most interesting one for me is Jonny May.

Even if he’s lost a yard of pace he was so quick to begin with he’s still faster than almost every other winger we have.

I agree about his pace (and his skill set) but I’m not worried about his pace dropping off quite yet. I read an article approx a month ago - he’s been working with a US sprint coach all summer and is ahead, in terms of raw speed, of where he should be/normally is at this stage of preseason and rehab.

[Scrumhead]

The other thing I'd say with the older players, and this is me as a fan, I'd probably disagree with myself were I coach - the older established players like the above... you're not going to learn anything new about them by playing them again now; but you may just speed up the introduction of the next generation by leaving them out. You could always spend a year without those old heads, safe in the knowledge that they can come back in if the youngsters fail to take their chances.
I'd keep the older 1st choice players in the squad, and drop the older backups; but tend to put the older starters on the bench (except Marler)

I'd also say that Slade really needs to prove his worth at this level. He's got 38 caps, and still plays like he's in his second international window - inconsitent and insecure. With Lawrence and Marchant snapping at his heels - I'd be tempted to play both of them alongside each other, and leave Slade on the bench!

I agree with most of your post Which, I just wanted to comment on the sections I’ve cut out.

On the bolded section, this is what I’d do … I don’t think giving game time to some of the new guys necessitates dropping the established players. There’s room for a bit of both in the squad. For example, I’d have May and Watson as my experienced back three options with a combination of Malins, Steward and Radwan or Cokanasiga.

Steward really put his hand up (albeit against very average opposition) and I think Eddie likes the idea of a ‘roaming winger’ which I’m sure we would have seen more of with Malins had he not got injured against the USA. Cokanasiga has a lot do IMO. Scoring the tries in the summer probably helped him a bit, but he has a lot to work on to be a really credible option against Tier 1 sides.

Totally agree on Slade. He’s consistently inconsistent which isn’t good enough for him to be as sure of his place as it seems he is.

[Scrumhead]

The most interesting one for me is Jonny May.

Even if he’s lost a yard of pace he was so quick to begin with he’s still faster than almost every other winger we have.

I agree about his pace (and his skill set) but I’m not worried about his pace dropping off quite yet. I read an article approx a month ago - he’s been working with a US sprint coach all summer and is ahead, in terms of raw speed, of where he should be/normally is at this stage of preseason and rehab.

Exactly. In terms of attitude and looking after himself, May is a consummate pro.

I’d back him to get back to form and put up a real fight for a starting spot. His dedication to improving himself (in terms of skill set and physical abilities) also makes him a great example to the younger guys IMO.

[Scrumhead]

Yeah it was strange watching him be basically the best winger in the world for quite a while, then have a relatively poor 6 nations behind a turgid England side and he’s completely done for.

With the weirdness of the last 2 seasons it’s very hard to judge who is just a bit knackered/burnt out.

Also difficult for wingers in teams that are struggling. Skivington is still finding his feet there, but maybe a full preseason and some more time making the squad his own will help.

If Adam Hastings settles in and does well at 10 it could make a big difference for the likes of May and Thorley.

[fivepointer]

Whether these players stay or go is largely going to be down to form and fitness. Think Wilson has probably played his last and May should be under quite severe pressure. Front 5 forwards can easily be retained into their 30's. George may have a year or two left, but i've a feeling LCD is going to be the regular starter (at least he should be).

Owen Farrell is 30 next month.....

[Raggs]

Farrell has relied on stamina more than outright pace. I don't think he's going to lose that in too much of a hurry.

[Which Tyler]

Farrell has relied on stamina more than outright pace. I don't think he's going to lose that in too much of a hurry.

TBF, what he's mostly relied upon is media hype - and that can be lost in an instant.

[Scrumhead]

Yep. The media hype is certainly one part of it. However, I think that has definitely started to fall away. I wouldn’t say the media has turned on him, but they’ve definitely started to.

It can’t be just that alone as there are plenty of coaches and players that have wholeheartedly praised him over the years, but the media have generally been his biggest backers until recently.

[FKAS]

I can't see Marler returning to international rugby. He seems happier playing for Quins and doing media work. If it gives him a better work/life balance then fair enough really.

He made himself available for/to the Lions….

Did he? I only saw the interview where he said that he wouldn't select himself if he was Gatland. I suppose he didn't rule himself out. Considering his circumstances I can't see it being a good idea for him to have gone to the SA bubble though.

[Mellsblue]

I can't see Marler returning to international rugby. He seems happier playing for Quins and doing media work. If it gives him a better work/life balance then fair enough really.

He made himself available for/to the Lions….

Did he? I only saw the interview where he said that he wouldn't select himself if he was Gatland. I suppose he didn't rule himself out. Considering his circumstances I can't see it being a good idea for him to have gone to the SA bubble though.

“I didn’t get an email. Bit gutted. I’m not surprised, but I’d have loved to have gone. I’d love to have gone with a different approach to it than I did in 2017,” Marler said.

https://www.planetrugby.com/no-british- ... oe-marler/

[FKAS]

He made himself available for/to the Lions….

Did he? I only saw the interview where he said that he wouldn't select himself if he was Gatland. I suppose he didn't rule himself out. Considering his circumstances I can't see it being a good idea for him to have gone to the SA bubble though.

“I didn’t get an email. Bit gutted. I’m not surprised, but I’d have loved to have gone. I’d love to have gone with a different approach to it than I did in 2017,” Marler said.

https://www.planetrugby.com/no-british- ... oe-marler/

Fair. Shame he didn't have a better relationship with Gatland as we could have done with him on tour.

[Digby]

Still the bigger thing isn't the age, it's the penalties. If dropping some old lags halves the number of penalties I'm all for it, but I don't see an obvious reduction in pens being the natural consequence of such a move.

'tis possible selecting a few players aged 30+ now creates some holes post the World Cup, but at some point that's going to be an issue, nobody avoids that problem entirely

[Scrumhead]

Did he? I only saw the interview where he said that he wouldn't select himself if he was Gatland. I suppose he didn't rule himself out. Considering his circumstances I can't see it being a good idea for him to have gone to the SA bubble though.

“I didn’t get an email. Bit gutted. I’m not surprised, but I’d have loved to have gone. I’d love to have gone with a different approach to it than I did in 2017,” Marler said.

https://www.planetrugby.com/no-british- ... oe-marler/

Fair. Shame he didn't have a better relationship with Gatland as we could have done with him on tour.

Timing is important here. I don’t think Marler is done with test rugby, I just think he doesn’t want to commit to COVID bubble conditions to be away from his young family, which is entirely fair enough. I’d like to think we’ll be in a lot better position in 2023 and France is about as close as we can get from a geographical POV.

[FKAS]

“I didn’t get an email. Bit gutted. I’m not surprised, but I’d have loved to have gone. I’d love to have gone with a different approach to it than I did in 2017,” Marler said.

https://www.planetrugby.com/no-british- ... oe-marler/

Fair. Shame he didn't have a better relationship with Gatland as we could have done with him on tour.

Timing is important here. I don’t think Marler is done with test rugby, I just think he doesn’t want to commit to COVID bubble conditions to be away from his young family, which is entirely fair enough. I’d like to think we’ll be in a lot better position in 2023 and France is about as close as we can get from a geographical POV.

Genge has talked about how tough it was leaving his little one to go into the bubble during the 6N so probably a good call from Marler. Marler has said it's the limelight and pressure that goes with international rugby he doesn't like. He might come out of retirement for the world cup but not sure he will before then.

[Scrumhead]

Yep. I can see that happening.

If he can maintain last season’s form between now and the RWC, he’ll be hard to ignore.

Mako was pretty good with the Lions but still seems as though he’s declining and while Genge’s rate of development is decent, I don’t know if he’ll be a good enough to warrant being a guaranteed starter.

Anyone else like Obano, West etc. have a very long way to go before they’re at the same level is Marler IMO.