RugbyRebels

Sunday, 3.00pm. BTSport
Ref: Jack Makepeace (8th Premiership game).
TJs: Anthony Woodthorpe & Paul Dix.
TMO: Andrew Jackson.

Bath:
15 Tom de Glanville*
14 Anthony Watson*
13 Jonathan Joseph
12 Max Ojomoh*
11 Will Muir(*)
10 Danny Cipriani
9 Ollie Fox*

1 Beno Obano*
2 Tom Dunn*
3 Will Stuart
4 Josh McNally
5 Charlie Ewels* ©
6 Miles Reid*
7 Sam Underhill
8 Josh Bayliss*

16 Jacques du Toit, 17 Lewis Boyce, 18 D’Arcy Rae, 19 Mike Williams, 20 Tom Ellis*
21 Max Green, 22 Orlando Bailey*, 23 Ruaridh McConnochie(*)



Saracens:
15 Alex Goode
14 Sean Maitland
13 Alex Lozowski
12 Nick Tompkins
11 Max Malins
10 Owen Farrell ©
9 Aled Davies

1 Mako Vunipola
2 Jamie George
3 Marco Riccioni
4 Maro Itoje
5 Tim Swinson
6 Nick Isiekwe
7 Ben Earl
8 Billy Vunipola

16 Tom Woolstencroft, 17 Eroni Mawi, 18 Vincent Koch, 19 Andy Christie, 20 Sean Reffell
21 Ivan van Zyl, 22 Dom Morris, 23 Rotimi Segun


For Bath, I make that
11 first choice starters
2 2nd choice starters
2 3rd choice starter
1.4th choice starting XV - our best of the season - and TBH, both 3rd choicers have earned themselves 2nd choice status by now; but I'll stick with my pre-season pecking order for the time being.

Is it just me that looks at that sarries team and thinks that they've got a whole bunch of ball players there, and is a little bit sad that they probably won't play that much?

Raggs wrote:Is it just me that looks at that sarries team and thinks that they've got a whole bunch of ball players there, and is a little bit sad that they probably won't play that much?

Yeah, you see a whole bunch of promise; then you reach the 9/10/12 axis...

Which Tyler wrote:

Raggs wrote:Is it just me that looks at that sarries team and thinks that they've got a whole bunch of ball players there, and is a little bit sad that they probably won't play that much?

Yeah, you see a whole bunch of promise; then you reach the 9/10/12 axis...

The 12 runs good lines though. Great option with a creative 13, should open up space for them to operate. The 9 or 10 could work with a different 10 or 9 but currently it does look a bit one paced. I'm sure the Sarries coaches will be doing a rain dance before the game with the hope of being able to kick, kick and kick again.

Which Tyler wrote:

Raggs wrote:Is it just me that looks at that sarries team and thinks that they've got a whole bunch of ball players there, and is a little bit sad that they probably won't play that much?

Yeah, you see a whole bunch of promise; then you reach the 9/10/12 axis...

I mean, Bath have very little ground to stand upon vis-a-vis a promising team on paper vs the actual performance returned on the pitch.

Puja

FKAS wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

Raggs wrote:Is it just me that looks at that sarries team and thinks that they've got a whole bunch of ball players there, and is a little bit sad that they probably won't play that much?

Yeah, you see a whole bunch of promise; then you reach the 9/10/12 axis...

The 12 runs good lines though. Great option with a creative 13, should open up space for them to operate. The 9 or 10 could work with a different 10 or 9 but currently it does look a bit one paced. I'm sure the Sarries coaches will be doing a rain dance before the game with the hope of being able to kick, kick and kick again.

I'm not sure they need rain to do that

FKAS wrote:The 12 runs good lines though. Great option with a creative 13, should open up space for them to operate.

Nothing against Tompkins, he is what he is, and there's nothing too wrong with that - what he isn't though, is a fast paced, handling IC who's going to demand the ball go wide when he sees something

Puja wrote:I mean, Bath have very little ground to stand upon vis-a-vis a promising team on paper vs the actual performance returned on the pitch.

I've just put in a bulk order


Like Saracens though, we have an obvious weak point in being able to expoloit that promise. It's just that ours is the tight 5 (specifically lock, and benched front row), rather than the half-back pairing (as opposed to a couple of years ago when it was also the half-back pairing)

What are bath doing.

Billy V just kicked a 50-22.

Embarrassing honestly. 0-38 at h/t.

45-0 would be an embarrassing loss in itself, however, it's only half time

twitchy wrote:Embarrassing honestly. 0-38 at h/t.

Thought you were joking so decided to check.... Blimey.

It really is getting to the point where someone has to carry the can at Bath. On paper, that looks like a very good 23. In practice, it’s been pi$$ poor.

Can’t see any way back for them here unless Saracens decide to be kind.

Scrumhead wrote:It really is getting to the point where someone has to carry the can at Bath. On paper, that looks like a very good 23. In practice, it’s been pi$$ poor.

Can’t see any way back for them here unless Saracens decide to be kind.

I thought Hooper was getting peter principled when he got a full coaching role, but they seemed to double down on it. I guess he has compromising photos.

Hooper following the Murphy method of staying at a club so long he ends up with the top job by default.

Bath have been hapless. They've scored a nice try at the start of the second half and made breaks in the first but it looks like talented players that have met in carpark pre game playing against side that's well drilled.

Bath would surely be an attractive proposition for a coach or DOR looking for a move. They are playing as less than the sum of their parts.

Scrumhead wrote:It really is getting to the point where someone has to carry the can at Bath. On paper, that looks like a very good 23. In practice, it’s been pi$$ poor.

Hatley has to carry the can here - head coach, defence coach, in charge of the forwards.
Hooper shouldn't be able to survive this one either, despite being responsible for longer term than this, it was his decision to promote Hatley away from his speciality, and into a job he's failing at.

Quite honestly, if both go it leaves the field clear for a new top-dog to bring his own men in

Raggs wrote:I thought Hooper was getting peter principled when he got a full coaching role, but they seemed to double down on it. I guess he has compromising photos.

FTR, he's never had a full coaching role.
Hatley though is the prime example of the Peter Principal - an excellent forwards coach promoted to failure as Head Coach with a more prestigious brief with defence.

That was so poor that a head or two will have to roll.

We've been saying it for a number of years: how can a squad with this number of good players routinely punch well below their weight?

Today Bath were indescribably bad. They didnt attain a Championship level side.

That was so dire that I went to look up when Leicester are due to play Bath, as I want us to play them while that management team are still at the helm, rather than catching them when they bounce back under new leadership. Hooper and Hatley have to last until 5th November please.

FKAS wrote:Hooper following the Murphy method of staying at a club so long he ends up with the top job by default.

...

Bath would surely be an attractive proposition for a coach or DOR looking for a move. They are playing as less than the sum of their parts.

Bath are so reminiscent of pre-Borthwick Leicester. Nice guy in charge, club stalwart, very popular, but clearly hilariously incapable of doing the job needed. You're right that they're a tasty proposition for anyone looking to make a name for themselves - starting from a very low base and very low expectations, but with players of the calibre of Obano, Stuart, Underhill, Cipriani, Joseph, and Watson to work with (to say nothing of the plethora of youngsters coming through). Feels like an easy win for a talented coach.

Puja

Puja wrote:That was so dire that I went to look up when Leicester are due to play Bath, as I want us to play them while that management team are still at the helm, rather than catching them when they bounce back under new leadership. Hooper and Hatley have to last until 5th November please.

FKAS wrote:Hooper following the Murphy method of staying at a club so long he ends up with the top job by default.

...

Bath would surely be an attractive proposition for a coach or DOR looking for a move. They are playing as less than the sum of their parts.

Bath are so reminiscent of pre-Borthwick Leicester. Nice guy in charge, club stalwart, very popular, but clearly hilariously incapable of doing the job needed. You're right that they're a tasty proposition for anyone looking to make a name for themselves - starting from a very low base and very low expectations, but with players of the calibre of Obano, Stuart, Underhill, Cipriani, Joseph, and Watson to work with (to say nothing of the plethora of youngsters coming through). Feels like an easy win for a talented coach.

Puja

We play them on I think the only game where AI selected players are unavailable. They bloody better be available the week before because we play Saints at the Gardens and after some pretty grim years I'm rather hoping we can do something there.

Any coach that looks at a Bath pack of; Obano, Dunn, Stuart, McInally, Ewels, Reid, Underhill and Falatau and thinks I can't get out of that lot more than the current incumbents should be shot. That is at worst a mid table pack, some of the back up is maybe a bit meh but not so much that you couldn't work with it and back yourself to bring in a player or two to move things along. The Bath backline pretty much reads like a fantasy selection though they could maybe be accused of having more resources tied up in back three options that could be used at halfback though at the rate Bailey is coming through there is an heir apparent at 10.

With the right coaching appointment at the helm they'd be really dangerous. Bring in a defence coach and shove Hatley back to doing what he knows. Imagine if they'd hired the right former Bath second row to lead the club.

FKAS wrote:

Puja wrote:That was so dire that I went to look up when Leicester are due to play Bath, as I want us to play them while that management team are still at the helm, rather than catching them when they bounce back under new leadership. Hooper and Hatley have to last until 5th November please.

Puja

We play them on I think the only game where AI selected players are unavailable. They bloody better be available the week before because we play Saints at the Gardens and after some pretty grim years I'm rather hoping we can do something there.

I believe that the EPS agreement mandates that England get the players the week before the AIs as well, so for the Saints game we'll likely be missing everyone called up, not just those making the matchday XXIII.

Puja

Puja wrote:

FKAS wrote:

Puja wrote:That was so dire that I went to look up when Leicester are due to play Bath, as I want us to play them while that management team are still at the helm, rather than catching them when they bounce back under new leadership. Hooper and Hatley have to last until 5th November please.

Puja

We play them on I think the only game where AI selected players are unavailable. They bloody better be available the week before because we play Saints at the Gardens and after some pretty grim years I'm rather hoping we can do something there.

I believe that the EPS agreement mandates that England get the players the week before the AIs as well, so for the Saints game we'll likely be missing everyone called up, not just those making the matchday XXIII.

Puja

Arse. With work and family I never get a boys day out. Now we get to go to the Gardens with half the team missing oh well I'll be on the beer at least. At least for Bath those not in the 23 will be back.

FKAS wrote:

Puja wrote:

FKAS wrote:
We play them on I think the only game where AI selected players are unavailable. They bloody better be available the week before because we play Saints at the Gardens and after some pretty grim years I'm rather hoping we can do something there.

I believe that the EPS agreement mandates that England get the players the week before the AIs as well, so for the Saints game we'll likely be missing everyone called up, not just those making the matchday XXIII.

Puja

Arse. With work and family I never get a boys day out. Now we get to go to the Gardens with half the team missing oh well I'll be on the beer at least. At least for Bath those not in the 23 will be back.

Will the selections be the end of the world though? It's very likely that all we'll lose is Genge, Heyes, Youngs, and Steward, versus them missing Lawes, possibly Ludlam, and Furbank. As long as Eddie doesn't decide to call up JVP as well (or see sense on Ford, but I think the latter's more likely), I think our squad's strong enough that we'll able to get a decent side out anyway.

Puja

Puja wrote:That was so dire that I went to look up when Leicester are due to play Bath, as I want us to play them while that management team are still at the helm.

Puja

Quins have Bath at the Stoop next week. After looking at that defence today, we should be in a great position to kick them when they’re down and rack up a very healthy bonus point win. However, even after our recent upturn in fortunes and significantly improved mentality, I still think we have it in us to contrive to lose …

If Quins turn it on and Bath defend like that then 100 points isn't out the question. Bath really were that abject. I can see Bath wanting to come out firing and make a statement whether that means some early fights, a card and then a heavy defeat or an improved performance I guess we'll see.

Good point Puja, gone are the days we are weak when the internationals are away. Away at the Gardens is a tough ask though, Saints will turn up for that so the replacement players will need to be on song. I guess we'll see the damage when the squad is announced later.

A lot of talk about Bath being terrible, but were Saracens not even particularly good? There's a weird thing that happens when a score surpasses a certain amount that seems to devalue anything the winning team have done. It's really hard to judge how much of the old Saracens standard is still there, or they're just the same side without the same ability to rotate dozens of top level internationals in and out.