Autumn 2022 fixtures

[SDHoneymonster]

The RFU have announced England's autumn fixtures for next year, and it looks tasty to say the least:

6th - Argentina
12th - Japan
19th - New Zealand
26th - South Africa

The first two are in England's WC group, and the second two are currently 1 & 2 in the world. Could be painful, or could be a glorious harbinger of conquests to come. Either way, can't accuse them of taking any easy options!

[Puja]

That is a good fixture list and in the right order too. Two warm-ups to get everything clicking, then straight into simulated World Cup semi and final.

Puja

[Peej]

How are we going to play the SA game outside the international window?

[SDHoneymonster]

Ireland and France will almost certainly have something to say about it, but at this point I'd still say if England are to win the WC they're going to have to get past NZ in the semis and SA in the final - and that's only if they avoid what is definitely a banana skin of a group with Samoa and their new collection of former All Blacks and Wallabies joining the Pumas and Brave Blossoms as tricky fixtures and what will likely be a tougher quarter final than 2019, with Australia improving, Wales being Wales and Fiji a definite dark horse. Therefore the scheduling is also very deliberate if I'm putting my galaxy brain on (and I definitely am): there is every chance that to win the whole shebang England will have to beat NZ in the semi-final again, and as we know unless you get lucky and manage to avoid them entirely (2003, 2007) or you get to play them in the final when they've got a squad-wide outbreak of the shits (1995 says hi) then teams who have to play them along the way tend not to be able to back up their winning performance with another one (which actually bodes well if France or Ireland pull a repeat of this autumn as England would be up against a side that had scaled an emotional peak). Obviously England have to win the game first, which is whatever the opposite of a given is, but putting themselves in that position could end up being useful.

[SDHoneymonster]

How are we going to play the SA game outside the international window?

I think the window covers the entire month of November, does it not?

[Puja]

How are we going to play the SA game outside the international window?

I think the window covers the entire month of November, does it not?

It doesn't - only covers three weekends in November, but that's the whole point of the EPS agreement. England get the players when they want them, including training weekends, and the clubs get a chunk of money to be quiet.

It has just occurred to me as I write this that you might mean South Africa would have problems getting players rather than us, which is a valid point. However, I think the international window is the last three weeks of November, so it'll be Argentina that are screwed, not SA.

Puja

[Peej]

I've just looked into this, and apparently the PRL/RFU agreement allows for one extra match every other year in non Lions/RWC years? But what do SA do as the WR rules don't extend that much. The international window for 2022 is 5-19th. I guess we'll just play an SA/Japan-based Bokke team but given how many of their current squad play in Europe and France it will definitely be playing a second choice team.

As for English players, this means that some Prem teams will be without their players for 5 weeks, and then miss another two due to mandatory rest periods. Add in the 8 weeks of the 6 Nations and then suddenly you realise your best players miss half the season. With cap reductions, for certain teams that just becomes unsustainable, and they will probably make the choice not to bother with England players.

[Puja]

I've just looked into this, and apparently the PRL/RFU agreement allows for one extra match every other year in non Lions/RWC years? But what do SA do as the WR rules don't extend that much. The international window for 2022 is 5-19th. I guess we'll just play an SA/Japan-based Bokke team but given how many of their current squad play in Europe and France it will definitely be playing a second choice team.

As for English players, this means that some Prem teams will be without their players for 5 weeks, and then miss another two due to mandatory rest periods. Add in the 8 weeks of the 6 Nations and then suddenly you realise your best players miss half the season. With cap reductions, for certain teams that just becomes unsustainable, and they will probably make the choice not to bother with England players.

Huh. I stand corrected. That is going to be a bit more of a disappointment - you'd've thought it'd make more sense to have NZ outside the window as they don't have foreign players. Mind, I suspect they charge more than SA do.

I will not that a chunk of those 13-15 weeks are the Premiership Cup, which no-one gives two short shits about. I would prefer for none of the Prem to be within international windows, but that's gone by the wayside with the recent expansion.

I think SDHM is right in that this won't be the semi and final lineup anyway. While Ireland won't go further than the quarter finals on a matter of policy, I'd expect both France and England to win their pools and thus meet in the semi-final, which might leave us worrying less about our final opponents and more looking at the 3rd/4th playoff.

Puja

[SDHoneymonster]

I've just looked into this, and apparently the PRL/RFU agreement allows for one extra match every other year in non Lions/RWC years? But what do SA do as the WR rules don't extend that much. The international window for 2022 is 5-19th. I guess we'll just play an SA/Japan-based Bokke team but given how many of their current squad play in Europe and France it will definitely be playing a second choice team.

As for English players, this means that some Prem teams will be without their players for 5 weeks, and then miss another two due to mandatory rest periods. Add in the 8 weeks of the 6 Nations and then suddenly you realise your best players miss half the season. With cap reductions, for certain teams that just becomes unsustainable, and they will probably make the choice not to bother with England players.

Huh. I stand corrected. That is going to be a bit more of a disappointment - you'd've thought it'd make more sense to have NZ outside the window as they don't have foreign players. Mind, I suspect they charge more than SA do.

I will not that a chunk of those 13-15 weeks are the Premiership Cup, which no-one gives two short shits about. I would prefer for none of the Prem to be within international windows, but that's gone by the wayside with the recent expansion.

I think SDHM is right in that this won't be the semi and final lineup anyway. While Ireland won't go further than the quarter finals on a matter of policy, I'd expect both France and England to win their pools and thus meet in the semi-final, which might leave us worrying less about our final opponents and more looking at the 3rd/4th playoff.

Puja

I suspect re Ireland you're right - they've got a horrible group that's gotten even worse now Tonga can send for reinforcements and for some reason I fancy them more as a team up against a side like New Zealand rather than one like South Africa, who are the only team in world rugby who can more successfully impose a game plan on their opponents than the Irish themselves. And even if they win the group they'll be facing France or NZ in the quarters having been beaten up by SA, Tonga and Scotland (who might as well start fashioning themselves as party poopers for Ireland now, and in fairness I suspect they'd quite enjoy that). That said I also think there is a massive possibility that this French team could go full England-2015 - the pressure now building on them is already huge and it's only going to grow, meaning I'd still probably prefer them to NZ as a semi-final opponent if England managed to get there.

[16th man]

The French will probably avoid the 2015 masterplan of having a training camp where you decide that you need to dick about with the body weight of your team a month out from the tournament, and this rock up looking like a boxer who's had to starve for a week to make the weight.

[16th man]

In the fixtures it makes sense to really hammer it next Autumn allowing a taper into the RWC.

I would expect Eddie to do the simulate a squad environment approach again, and for us to be looking a bit mix and match for the first 2, and trying to solve any injury or form issues from within the group for the second 2.

The only reason I can see him veering from that is the possible psychological boost of going back to back against the ABs.

[Danno]

I think SDHM is right in that this won't be the semi and final lineup anyway. While Ireland won't go further than the quarter finals on a matter of policy, I'd expect both France and England to win their pools and thus meet in the semi-final, which might leave us worrying less about our final opponents and more looking at the 3rd/4th playoff.

Puja

Still shaken after the ABs match?

[Puja]

I think SDHM is right in that this won't be the semi and final lineup anyway. While Ireland won't go further than the quarter finals on a matter of policy, I'd expect both France and England to win their pools and thus meet in the semi-final, which might leave us worrying less about our final opponents and more looking at the 3rd/4th playoff.

Puja

Still shaken after the ABs match?

I mean, France have been f*cking terrifying for a while. Their depth is unnatural - their 2nd XV went toe-to-toe with us a couple of years back and their 3rds came pretty close to a series win away in Australia. They've got a golden generation of players coming through with their JWC winning players peaking for 2023 and their coaching setup is second to none. Add home advantage to that and I'm putting them as heavy favourites for the whole tournament.

And yes, utterly dismissing the All Blacks didn't hurt my opinion of them. Might not be vintage New Zealand, but there's still very few who put them away that effectively.

Having said that, I think we're one of the best equipped teams to take them on. The French don't always play to their best against us and we do tend to raise our game for them. I think the other semi-final (Aus/Wal/Japan vs NZ/SA) will be cheering us on if that's the way the tournament breaks as they'd much rather have us in the final.

Puja

[Danno]

Agree with all of that. The NZ match really seemed to be a step up from France though, they were imperious and seemed to know they were going to bury them from the anthems onward