RugbyRebels

STARTING XV
15 Bryce Hegarty [6]
14 Harry Potter [26]
13 Matt Scott [36]
12 Dan Kelly [33]
11 Guy Porter [30]
10 Freddie Burns [86]
9 Richard Wigglesworth (c) [24]
1 James Whitcombe [11]
2 Julián Montoya [15]
3 Dan Cole [278]
4 Harry Wells [140]
5 Calum Green [75]
6 George Martin [28]
7 Tommy Reffell [62]
8 Jasper Wiese [28]

REPLACEMENTS
16 Nic Dolly [15]
17 Francois van Wyk [7]
18 Nephi Leatigaga [55]
19 Hanro Liebenberg [43]
20 Olly Robinson *
21 Jack van Poortvliet [34]
22 Juan Pablo Socino [6]
23 Hosea Saumaki [6]

* denotes Leicester Tigers debut

SALE SHARKS XV: 15 Luke James, 14 Tom Roebuck, 13 Robert du Preez, 12 Rohan Janse van Rensburg, 11 Byron McGuigan, 10 Aj Macginty, 9 Will Cliff; 1 Ross Harrison, 2 Ewan Ashman, 3 Coenie Oosthuizen, 4 Jean-Luc du Preez, 5 Lood de Jager, 6 Jono Ross (c), 7 Ben Curry, 8 Daniel du Preez

REPLACEMENTS: 16 Curtis Langdon, 17 Simon McIntyre, 18 Joe Jones, 19 JP du Preez, 20 Sam Dugdale, 21 Gus Warr, 22 Sam James, 23 Arron Reed

Two fairly matched teams for this one. A mixture of home advantage plus McGinty probably makes Sale favourites.

Shame no Nadolo or Kini for Tigers but good to see Hanro back.

Still no sign of James Harper in a Sale matchday 23.

I assume he's injured. Anyone know what the issue is and when he is likely to be back?

Knee injury pre-season I believe. Not sure what latest news is but I do recall Axe indicating earlier in the season that it was long term. Real shame for the lad because when he broke through last season he looked a really exciting prospect

chris1850 wrote:Knee injury pre-season I believe. Not sure what latest news is but I do recall Axe indicating earlier in the season that it was long term. Real shame for the lad because when he broke through last season he looked a really exciting prospect

Thanks for that. He looked a great prospect last season. Hope to see him soon.

Just to add it's on ITV. (14:30 Sunday)

loudnconfident wrote:Just to add it's on ITV. (14:30 Sunday)

Lovely

why wouldn't you give JVP a start? He needs and deserves game time as a starter.

Banquo wrote:why wouldn't you give JVP a start? He needs and deserves game time as a starter.

My thoughts exactly!!!!

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:why wouldn't you give JVP a start? He needs and deserves game time as a starter.

My thoughts exactly!!!!

and its not just because I played rugby with his dad!

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:why wouldn't you give JVP a start? He needs and deserves game time as a starter.

My thoughts exactly!!!!

and its not just because I played rugby with his dad!

Don't get embarrassed about age. You are talking to me, remember - just about old enough to be your Dad!!!!!

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
My thoughts exactly!!!!

and its not just because I played rugby with his dad!

Don't get embarrassed about age. You are talking to me, remember - just about old enough to be your Dad!!!!!

I think you misunderstand- his dad's a great bloke (though looked strange when his eyebrows were shaved off- dont be 21 on tour #justsayingkids) but I'm not pushing JVP out of loyalty, he's excellent and has clearly worked on kicking technique.

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote: and its not just because I played rugby with his dad!

Don't get embarrassed about age. You are talking to me, remember - just about old enough to be your Dad!!!!!

I think you misunderstand- his dad's a great bloke (though looked strange when his eyebrows were shaved off- dont be 21 on tour #justsayingkids) but I'm not pushing JVP out of loyalty, he's excellent and has clearly worked on kicking technique.

He'll play most of the second half and be used to up the tempo. Borthwick likes to work the opposition hard on a fairly attritional first 50ish minutes and then add impact and look to use the generally strong bench and Tigers better conditioning to take the game beyond the opposition.

Tigers certainly have a lot of impact on the bench with the big and rapid Saumaki, the just very big Leatigaga, Dolly and Robinson will add a lot of energy and big Hanro is all action. JVP will get those guys with fresh legs and the licence to create and attack. Wigglesworth will have the controlling and pressuring role.

FKAS wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
Don't get embarrassed about age. You are talking to me, remember - just about old enough to be your Dad!!!!!

I think you misunderstand- his dad's a great bloke (though looked strange when his eyebrows were shaved off- dont be 21 on tour #justsayingkids) but I'm not pushing JVP out of loyalty, he's excellent and has clearly worked on kicking technique.

He'll play most of the second half and be used to up the tempo. Borthwick likes to work the opposition hard on a fairly attritional first 50ish minutes and then add impact and look to use the generally strong bench and Tigers better conditioning to take the game beyond the opposition.

Tigers certainly have a lot of impact on the bench with the big and rapid Saumaki, the just very big Leatigaga, Dolly and Robinson will add a lot of energy and big Hanro is all action. JVP will get those guys with fresh legs and the licence to create and attack. Wigglesworth will have the controlling and pressuring role.

I get all that, but for JVPs development, starting and performing that role has to be good for him and Tigers- and they are sure to be in the play offs anyhoo.

He's had starts though I do agree he could do with some more. He captained the PRC side and has been rotated in to the side regularly. Part of me thinks Borthwick is right to keep the hype dialled down a little bit whilst he learns his trade. In Borthwick we trust as well. I am hoping he's pushing on for more game time, Wigglesworth is likely to retire soon and if anything we need to get Edwards or Law more game time.

I'm with FKAS - JVP is very promising player, but he's still only 20 and can be erratic (as most 20 year olds are). He's getting plenty of game time generally and I'd rather he earned the right to be ahead of Wigglesworth instead of being gifted it on potential. Quite apart from anything else, he's still learning and I'd rather not damage his progression and confidence by chucking him in and having a mistake cost us a game. Better he fights for his place and gets good enough to wrest it from Wigglesworth.

Puja

Puja wrote:I'm with FKAS - JVP is very promising player, but he's still only 20 and can be erratic (as most 20 year olds are). He's getting plenty of game time generally and I'd rather he earned the right to be ahead of Wigglesworth instead of being gifted it on potential. Quite apart from anything else, he's still learning and I'd rather not damage his progression and confidence by chucking him in and having a mistake cost us a game. Better he fights for his place and gets good enough to wrest it from Wigglesworth.

Puja

I'll happily disagree with all three of you . And last time i saw him play he was excellent, having hugely improved his kicking, so hardly 'gifted on potential'; its not like Wiggy or Youngs don't make mistakes. I'd have said given Tigers league position, its a good time to stretch him further-- and there is a big difference starting the game, important to learn how to do that in a different style. All that said, he's started/been gifted 4 prem games already this season of a total of 8, so in fairness he's getting a decent crack.

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:I'm with FKAS - JVP is very promising player, but he's still only 20 and can be erratic (as most 20 year olds are). He's getting plenty of game time generally and I'd rather he earned the right to be ahead of Wigglesworth instead of being gifted it on potential. Quite apart from anything else, he's still learning and I'd rather not damage his progression and confidence by chucking him in and having a mistake cost us a game. Better he fights for his place and gets good enough to wrest it from Wigglesworth.

Puja

I'll happily disagree with all three of you . And last time i saw him play he was excellent, having hugely improved his kicking, so hardly 'gifted on potential'; its not like Wiggy or Youngs don't make mistakes. I'd have said given Tigers league position, its a good time to stretch him further-- and there is a big difference starting the game, important to learn how to do that in a different style. All that said, he's started/been gifted 4 prem games already this season of a total of 8, so in fairness he's getting a decent crack.

Borthwick's rotation policy means that the starts are shared around the 3 scrum halfs. JVP has had and will have more chances this season. Borthwick likes a game plan though so it's not unusual for players you think should be starting to emerge from the bench and make an impact on the game to Tigers benefit.

Whilst we're talking about youngsters, great to see Whitcombe get a start. He's got experience around him so can concentrate on slotting in. A young man with a lot of potential, talked up by Genge a fair bit.

FKAS wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:I'm with FKAS - JVP is very promising player, but he's still only 20 and can be erratic (as most 20 year olds are). He's getting plenty of game time generally and I'd rather he earned the right to be ahead of Wigglesworth instead of being gifted it on potential. Quite apart from anything else, he's still learning and I'd rather not damage his progression and confidence by chucking him in and having a mistake cost us a game. Better he fights for his place and gets good enough to wrest it from Wigglesworth.

Puja

I'll happily disagree with all three of you . And last time i saw him play he was excellent, having hugely improved his kicking, so hardly 'gifted on potential'; its not like Wiggy or Youngs don't make mistakes. I'd have said given Tigers league position, its a good time to stretch him further-- and there is a big difference starting the game, important to learn how to do that in a different style. All that said, he's started/been gifted 4 prem games already this season of a total of 8, so in fairness he's getting a decent crack.

Borthwick's rotation policy means that the starts are shared around the 3 scrum halfs. JVP has had and will have more chances this season. Borthwick likes a game plan though so it's not unusual for players you think should be starting to emerge from the bench and make an impact on the game to Tigers benefit.

Whilst we're talking about youngsters, great to see Whitcombe get a start. He's got experience around him so can concentrate on slotting in. A young man with a lot of potential, talked up by Genge a fair bit.

I understand all that. I just think JVP is good enough to get more starting slots, esp when Youngs is away, and this game looks like a great test for him.

Banquo wrote:

FKAS wrote:

Banquo wrote: I'll happily disagree with all three of you . And last time i saw him play he was excellent, having hugely improved his kicking, so hardly 'gifted on potential'; its not like Wiggy or Youngs don't make mistakes. I'd have said given Tigers league position, its a good time to stretch him further-- and there is a big difference starting the game, important to learn how to do that in a different style. All that said, he's started/been gifted 4 prem games already this season of a total of 8, so in fairness he's getting a decent crack.

Borthwick's rotation policy means that the starts are shared around the 3 scrum halfs. JVP has had and will have more chances this season. Borthwick likes a game plan though so it's not unusual for players you think should be starting to emerge from the bench and make an impact on the game to Tigers benefit.

Whilst we're talking about youngsters, great to see Whitcombe get a start. He's got experience around him so can concentrate on slotting in. A young man with a lot of potential, talked up by Genge a fair bit.

I understand all that. I just think JVP is good enough to get more starting slots, esp when Youngs is away, and this game looks like a great test for him.

I will note as well that JVP's senior debut was against Sale away a year or two back and was a complete disaster - Sale targetted him and I think he was charged down 5-6 times, giving away at least 1 try in a defeat. There may be an element of not wanting to throw him back in starting at the site of probably quite a traumatising event and instead allow him to come off the bench and up the tempo.

Puja

Pity we won't see JVP and Raffi on the pitch together. Also a shame Bevan Rodd is away - would have been a great test of where he is up to against Cole.

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

FKAS wrote:
Borthwick's rotation policy means that the starts are shared around the 3 scrum halfs. JVP has had and will have more chances this season. Borthwick likes a game plan though so it's not unusual for players you think should be starting to emerge from the bench and make an impact on the game to Tigers benefit.

Whilst we're talking about youngsters, great to see Whitcombe get a start. He's got experience around him so can concentrate on slotting in. A young man with a lot of potential, talked up by Genge a fair bit.

I understand all that. I just think JVP is good enough to get more starting slots, esp when Youngs is away, and this game looks like a great test for him.

I will note as well that JVP's senior debut was against Sale away a year or two back and was a complete disaster - Sale targetted him and I think he was charged down 5-6 times, giving away at least 1 try in a defeat. There may be an element of not wanting to throw him back in starting at the site of probably quite a traumatising event and instead allow him to come off the bench and up the tempo.

Puja

...and as I pointed out, he's improved his kicking, and what better way to test it! TBH, you probably don't overcome that sort of 'traumatising' event by avoiding facing the challenge.

Just an opinion- I think you have to challenge your players to develop.

Minutes this season
JVP - 539
Youngs - 491
Wigglesworth - 337

Tigersman wrote:Minutes this season
JVP - 539
Youngs - 491
Wigglesworth - 337

as I said (4 starts, 9th game involved), he's been given chances (and playing well), but starting and playing to the starting game plan is a different matter, and I was commenting that this particular game would look to be an ideal development chance. But Borthwick decides otherwise, and that's what he's paid for. I'm just conscious of a few 9's who have been and gone at Tigers without quite fulfilling potential....and doubtless that happens elsewhere in fairness.

Banquo wrote:

Tigersman wrote:Minutes this season
JVP - 539
Youngs - 491
Wigglesworth - 337

as I said (4 starts, 9th game involved), he's been given chances (and playing well), but starting and playing to the starting game plan is a different matter, and I was commenting that this particular game would look to be an ideal development chance. But Borthwick decides otherwise, and that's what he's paid for. I'm just conscious of a few 9's who have been and gone at Tigers without quite fulfilling potential....and doubtless that happens elsewhere in fairness.

The only 9 come and gone at Leicester is White, and I don't see him as a big loss - he just plain wasn't good enough.

I'm starting to think there's something to the softly-softly approach. It's worked very well for Saracens over the years. Plus, the players who we dropped in at the deep end and gave lots of starts to in previous years - Olowofela, Hardwick, Worth - have not made the grade (although that might be a comment on their quality vs the likes of Steward, Martin, JVP, etc).

Puja