RugbyRebels

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sala ... 1655326497

The best PRL could do was analyse anonymously the salary levels across the league in 2020-21, which revealed the average player was paid £143,699. That was down on the previous year, probably because of the pandemic.

Nearly half of Premiership players earned under £100,000 in 2020-21 (28 per cent were in the £50,000 to £100,000 bracket) and 21 percent of players (115 individuals) earned over £200,000. The average income of the top 24 earners in the league that season was £532,894. The average income for a fly half was £175,679, but 13 per cent of all No 10s in the league are paid over £400,000, by far the highest wages of any position. The next was centres (8 per cent) and full backs (7 per cent).

The best-paid position in the pack is lock forward, where the average income was £158,617, with a quarter of all second rows paid over £200,000 and six percent taking home over £400,000.

Hookers are at the opposite end of the scale, averaging £113,000 but almost half take home between £50-£100,000 and only 6 per cent earned more than that. Wings and scrum halves are the relative paupers of the back division.

Simon Massie-Taylor, PRL’s chief executive, confirmed that the salary cap will rise from £5 million back to £6.4 million in 2024-25, but he admitted a close eye needs to be kept on salary inflation as the top players in the league already earn in excess of £700,000 a season from clubs that are losing money and having to reduce squad sizes.

Full report is available here -
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/ ... rt-2020-21

Not a surprise flyhalfs are topping the list when Farrell, Biggar and Ford are all on stellar salaries and I doubt McGinty is far behind considering when Sale signed him. Smith is rumoured to be in negotiations because his £400k salary isn't in line with the top flyhalf earners.

Props and scrum halfs suffer as an average because squads generally carry so many and the back up options tend to be paid peanuts.

Hookers always seem to get paid less though again you have to have at least four and it's likely the third and fourth choice are in that £50-100k bracket.

Players earning less than 30k were excluded from the study so as not to skew the data....

Gloskarlos wrote:Players earning less than 30k were excluded from the study so as not to skew the data....

That seems ridiculous to me, if you're including marquees, surely you have to include the lowest earners too.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/saracens ... alary-cap/

This could be interesting …

Scrumhead wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/saracens ... alary-cap/

This could be interesting …

Could be like one of those games of football where neither side wants to win! No own-tries in rugby though.

On a sensible note, I think it's a really good idea. Just removes any rumours or suspicion of shenanigans from a successful team.

Puja

I can see it now. It’s the 79th min, 21 v 22 to Sarries and Ford is waiting for the tee to kick 3pts from in front of the posts. Suddenly, a man wearing a Tigers polo and spectacles, with no sense of humour and the ability to suck the fun out of any situation, ie the club’s accountant, comes sprinting out of tunnel and has an animated chat with Bothers. 10 secs later Borthers puts on his Rassie Erasmus mask and sprints over to Ford for yet another animated conversation. Ford shrugs his shoulders and fires the kick 10m wide hitting a man with a ‘I’m a Backist Monk’ placard square in the face. The chap with the ‘I love St Benny’ placard doesn’t know whether to laugh or cry.
The following day, all the headlines proclaim Farrell won the match singlehandedly and would’ve scored 4pts were he to have the last minute kick.
Or something similar to that.

Mellsblue wrote:I can see it now. It’s the 79th min, 21 v 22 to Sarries and Ford is waiting for the tee to kick 3pts from in front of the posts. Suddenly, a man wearing a Tigers polo and spectacles, with no sense of humour and the ability to suck the fun out of any situation, ie the club’s accountant, comes sprinting out of tunnel and has an animated chat with Bothers. 10 secs later Borthers puts on his Rassie Erasmus mask and sprints over to Ford for yet another animated conversation. Ford shrugs his shoulders and fires the kick 10m wide hitting a man with a ‘I’m a Backist Monk’ placard square in the face. The chap with the ‘I love St Benny’ placard doesn’t know whether to laugh or cry.
The following day, all the headlines proclaim Farrell won the match singlehandedly and would’ve scored 4pts were he to have the last minute kick.
Or something similar to that.

Quite frankly if Tigers are caught to be over again the board will be lynched. The last lot got away with it because they'd slunk off before it all came to light.

Puja wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/saracens ... alary-cap/

This could be interesting …

Could be like one of those games of football where neither side wants to win! No own-tries in rugby though.

On a sensible note, I think it's a really good idea. Just removes any rumours or suspicion of shenanigans from a successful team.

Puja

I agree.

I was also pleased to read that Quins were ‘commended’ for their participation last season.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I just can’t believe that Saracens squad can be under the cap. It seems impossible.

Scrumhead wrote:At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I just can’t believe that Saracens squad can be under the cap. It seems impossible.

That's why I love this plan so much. Every time a team is successful, people grumble that "there's no way they're under the salary cap". I think the only Premiership winner that I haven't witnessed someone casting aspersions on is Quins, and that's only because they came from so far back (in the regular league and the knockouts) and had so many young self-developed talent (and still people said, "They *will* be over once they start renegotiating contracts").

Having a bulletproof audit will remove all doubt and remove those aspersions.

Puja

Scrumhead wrote:
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I just can’t believe that Saracens squad can be under the cap. It seems impossible.

Well. It kind of is. Do a lot of the players not still have companies and properties with/in partnership with Wray, so there's a fair bit of historical cheating that they are still getting away with?
I have to admit, the whole 'redemption' storyline is really grating with me, its pushing me into wholeheartedly supporting Tigers ffs!

Dan. Dan. Dan. wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I just can’t believe that Saracens squad can be under the cap. It seems impossible.

Well. It kind of is. Do a lot of the players not still have companies and properties with/in partnership with Wray, so there's a fair bit of historical cheating that they are still getting away with?
I have to admit, the whole 'redemption' storyline is really grating with me, its pushing me into wholeheartedly supporting Tigers ffs!

The 'redemption' thing, as grizzled about by Scrumhead and others, is totally, horribly artificial. They spent a season in the Championship and shed a bunch of players on loan contracts to cut their wage bill. That ensured that, largely, the developmental players got meaningful gametime, while the rest of the squad had an easy ride back to the Prem. Handy for the internationals to have a bit of a rest, especially with Jones cutting e.g. the Vunipolas from the England squad. Promotion happened regardless of lots of people silently urging Ealing on, everyone on loan flooded back from their year away and uhhh, how was the cap actually complied with this year, again?

Same Sarries, only there's even more to hate now.

Danno wrote:

Dan. Dan. Dan. wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I just can’t believe that Saracens squad can be under the cap. It seems impossible.

Well. It kind of is. Do a lot of the players not still have companies and properties with/in partnership with Wray, so there's a fair bit of historical cheating that they are still getting away with?
I have to admit, the whole 'redemption' storyline is really grating with me, its pushing me into wholeheartedly supporting Tigers ffs!

The 'redemption' thing, as grizzled about by Scrumhead and others, is totally, horribly artificial. They spent a season in the Championship and shed a bunch of players on loan contracts to cut their wage bill. That ensured that, largely, the developmental players got meaningful gametime, while the rest of the squad had an easy ride back to the Prem. Handy for the internationals to have a bit of a rest, especially with Jones cutting e.g. the Vunipolas from the England squad. Promotion happened regardless of lots of people silently urging Ealing on, everyone on loan flooded back from their year away and uhhh, how was the cap actually complied with this year, again?

Same Sarries, only there's even more to hate now.

They don't have ridiculous squad depth anymore. They used to have internationals in Carre, Lamositele, and Skelton coming off the bench, they retired/moved on a lot of older players like Barritt, Rhodes, Wigglesworth without replacing them, and they got rid of international players and either didn't replace them or did so cheaply: Kruis being replaced by Swinson, Spencer replaced by Aled Davies, and Liam Williams not being replaced.

They're definitely a cheaper squad than they were back in their cheating days, to the extent that the majority of the people in the Prem predictions thread at the start of the season didn't think they'd have the depth to make the playoffs. Eddie deciding to gift them back the Vunipolae helped put the kibosh on thay prediction, although they still excel at being greater than the sum of their parts.

Puja

Yes. A lot of that is true. I genuinely thought they would struggle as I thought the rest period following the Lions tour would hit them a lot harder than it did in reality.

My intense dislike of Saracens doesn’t mean I can’t recognise where they deserve credit. A significant chunk of their best players are academy products and recently, they’ve made some very canny, unheralded signings like McFarland and Mawi who have turned out to be very good.

I also think the number of internationals piece is ever so slightly overplayed when it includes players like Swinson and Taylor who haven’t been in the test arena for a while and a few tier 2 players like Pifileti.

However, no other club can field a regular starting XV with 90% tier 1 internationals and even if Goode is no longer playing for England, I don’t believe he’s on a low wage. Same goes for players like Lozowski and Davies. Most clubs seem to have had to make much bigger compromises to stay below the cap.

Puja wrote:

Danno wrote:

Dan. Dan. Dan. wrote:
Well. It kind of is. Do a lot of the players not still have companies and properties with/in partnership with Wray, so there's a fair bit of historical cheating that they are still getting away with?
I have to admit, the whole 'redemption' storyline is really grating with me, its pushing me into wholeheartedly supporting Tigers ffs!

The 'redemption' thing, as grizzled about by Scrumhead and others, is totally, horribly artificial. They spent a season in the Championship and shed a bunch of players on loan contracts to cut their wage bill. That ensured that, largely, the developmental players got meaningful gametime, while the rest of the squad had an easy ride back to the Prem. Handy for the internationals to have a bit of a rest, especially with Jones cutting e.g. the Vunipolas from the England squad. Promotion happened regardless of lots of people silently urging Ealing on, everyone on loan flooded back from their year away and uhhh, how was the cap actually complied with this year, again?

Same Sarries, only there's even more to hate now.

They don't have ridiculous squad depth anymore. They used to have internationals in Carre, Lamositele, and Skelton coming off the bench, they retired/moved on a lot of older players like Barritt, Rhodes, Wigglesworth without replacing them, and they got rid of international players and either didn't replace them or did so cheaply: Kruis being replaced by Swinson, Spencer replaced by Aled Davies, and Liam Williams not being replaced.

They're definitely a cheaper squad than they were back in their cheating days, to the extent that the majority of the people in the Prem predictions thread at the start of the season didn't think they'd have the depth to make the playoffs. Eddie deciding to gift them back the Vunipolae helped put the kibosh on thay prediction, although they still excel at being greater than the sum of their parts.

Puja

Their squad depth is still insane when compared to, for instance, Quins.

2 international hookers
4 international props
3 international locks
5 international back rows
3 international scrum halfs
1 international fly half
4 international centres
1 international wing
2 international full backs

That's just insane. And yes, I do know that many of those play for the likes of USA, Fiji and Namibia, but there's still 20 players who play for 6N teams or South Africa. 20!

Compare that to Quins with 13 TOTAL internationals (not just tier 1) and that's a huge imbalance. And it's not as if Quins' 13 are going to be better paid...

Collier vs Koch? Smith vs Farrell? Itoje vs Lewies? I do not believe that we're operating on a level playing field unless Saracens are grossly underpaying, and then how would they atract so many players!

Tigers semi-final 23 had 16 internationals in it, only one of which wasn't a top tier nation, and that's without Dolly, Ashton, Wigglesworth, Saumaki, Murimurivalu, Socino, van Staden.

Stom wrote:

Puja wrote:

Danno wrote:The 'redemption' thing, as grizzled about by Scrumhead and others, is totally, horribly artificial. They spent a season in the Championship and shed a bunch of players on loan contracts to cut their wage bill. That ensured that, largely, the developmental players got meaningful gametime, while the rest of the squad had an easy ride back to the Prem. Handy for the internationals to have a bit of a rest, especially with Jones cutting e.g. the Vunipolas from the England squad. Promotion happened regardless of lots of people silently urging Ealing on, everyone on loan flooded back from their year away and uhhh, how was the cap actually complied with this year, again?

Same Sarries, only there's even more to hate now.

They don't have ridiculous squad depth anymore. They used to have internationals in Carre, Lamositele, and Skelton coming off the bench, they retired/moved on a lot of older players like Barritt, Rhodes, Wigglesworth without replacing them, and they got rid of international players and either didn't replace them or did so cheaply: Kruis being replaced by Swinson, Spencer replaced by Aled Davies, and Liam Williams not being replaced.

They're definitely a cheaper squad than they were back in their cheating days, to the extent that the majority of the people in the Prem predictions thread at the start of the season didn't think they'd have the depth to make the playoffs. Eddie deciding to gift them back the Vunipolae helped put the kibosh on thay prediction, although they still excel at being greater than the sum of their parts.

Puja

Their squad depth is still insane when compared to, for instance, Quins.

2 international hookers
4 international props
3 international locks
5 international back rows
3 international scrum halfs
1 international fly half
4 international centres
1 international wing
2 international full backs

That's just insane. And yes, I do know that many of those play for the likes of USA, Fiji and Namibia, but there's still 20 players who play for 6N teams or South Africa. 20!

Compare that to Quins with 13 TOTAL internationals (not just tier 1) and that's a huge imbalance. And it's not as if Quins' 13 are going to be better paid...

Collier vs Koch? Smith vs Farrell? Itoje vs Lewies? I do not believe that we're operating on a level playing field unless Saracens are grossly underpaying, and then how would they atract so many players!

You're not comparing apples with apples there. Yes, they have an international centre, and wing, but those are Taylor and Maitland who are past their prime and have also been with them ages. Saracens are also likely grossly underpaying compared to Quins - they were one of the pre-eminent teams in Europe and coming to them meant joining a successful side who were likely to win trophies. Compare that to Wilco Louw and Andre Esterhuizen who were probably offered fairly heavy salaries to join a Quins side who were oscillating between high and low midtable and could've ended in a relegation for all they knew.

Puja

While I agree that Quins would have to pay more to attract players, I very much doubt that players like Goode, Maitland and Lozowski are cheap. They might not be current internationals, but they’re key players whose salaries most likely reflect their importance in the squad.

The big earners are fairly obvious - Farrell, Itoje, George, Mako, Billy, Daly and Koch.

The next rung are mostly ex-academy, but are all regular-ish internationals who will now be on full contracts - Earl, Tompkins, Malins, Isiekwe. I’d imagine they are now compensated at a similar level to Goode, Maitland and Lozowski. You could maybe add Davies in to that as he was regularly featuring for Wales before he signed.

Other first team regulars like Wray or Lewington are probably on slightly above average salaries. However, I suspect a lot of the squad players will be on average money (I’m thinking of players like Woolstencroft or Taylor) and some of their main 23 like McFarland and Mawi will be cheap for now, but won’t be as cheap come renewal time.

When you break it down, it might be possible that they’re within the cap, but I count 7 very expensive players and 4-7 who will be well above average. That’s a lot. Perhaps their squad players are paid peanuts?

You can say that about most clubs.

Quins big earners;
Andre - highest paid centre in the league
Smith
Care
Marler
Dombrandt (new deal this year)
Louw

Then you've got Jones and Green, Collier. Marchant will be up there when he renews next summer at the same time Smith we'll get a significant bump.

Tigers;
Ford
Genge
Youngs
Cole
Nadolo
Weise
Montoya

Then there's MVS, Liebenburg, Heyes etc. Tigers will have an interesting time when the young guys like JVP, Martin and Steward who signed four year deals come to renew next summer.

Saints;
Proctor
Biggar
Lawes
Ludlum
Ribbans
Augustus
Harrison

Glaws;
Alemmano
Hastings
Woodward
Singleton
Harris
Ackerman
Ludlow

Bristol;
Radrada
Piatau
Luatua
Sheedy
Randall
Sinckler

Everyone throws what money they can at their squad. I like the idea of a detailed audit for the winners, as Puja says it removes the doubt.

It's also worth noting that players like George and Montoya might get good money for hookers but hooker salaries are on average the lowest in the league.

Scrumhead wrote:While I agree that Quins would have to pay more to attract players, I very much doubt that players like Goode, Maitland and Lozowski are cheap. They might not be current internationals, but they’re key players whose salaries most likely reflect their importance in the squad.

The big earners are fairly obvious - Farrell, Itoje, George, Mako, Billy, Daly and Koch.

The next rung are mostly ex-academy, but are all regular-ish internationals who will now be on full contracts - Earl, Tompkins, Malins, Isiekwe. I’d imagine they are now compensated at a similar level to Goode, Maitland and Lozowski. You could maybe add Davies in to that as he was regularly featuring for Wales before he signed.

Other first team regulars like Wray or Lewington are probably on slightly above average salaries. However, I suspect a lot of the squad players will be on average money (I’m thinking of players like Woolstencroft or Taylor) and some of their main 23 like McFarland and Mawi will be cheap for now, but won’t be as cheap come renewal time.

When you break it down, it might be possible that they’re within the cap, but I count 7 very expensive players and 4-7 who will be well above average. That’s a lot. Perhaps their squad players are paid peanuts?

I'd be surprised if the likes of Wray and Lewington are above average. Wray is Saracens all his days and would likely be on a lower contract than he could get elsewhere because of that loyalty. Lewington joined from a relegation-bait London Irish - if given the choice between staying at them with a larger contract or moving to Saracens, winning stuff, not getting thumped regularly, and potentially getting more England recognition, I'd imagine he'd be willing to accept a smaller contract. Same with Tompkins - quite apart from anything else, when he left, he went to The Dragons. You think he's not willing to be paid under his market value to be back at a successful, happy club where he's comfortable and loved?

The majority of that squad is either Saracens-developed, mostly Saracens-developed, or signed from smaller clubs. I'd imagine they play very hard ball with contract renegotiation - "This is the offer to stay at Saracens - to play at the top of the table, with Maro Itoje and Owen Farrell, to be in a successful team that catches the eye of the international selectors. We developed you, you enjoy it here, it's a good atmosphere, and you know we take care of our players off the pitch. I know you can get more money elsewhere and, if you want to go, we'll miss you. But that's the offer on the table here and we can't afford to give you anything else, so take it or let us know that you're moving on so we can start preparing for life after you."

Puja

Puja wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:While I agree that Quins would have to pay more to attract players, I very much doubt that players like Goode, Maitland and Lozowski are cheap. They might not be current internationals, but they’re key players whose salaries most likely reflect their importance in the squad.

The big earners are fairly obvious - Farrell, Itoje, George, Mako, Billy, Daly and Koch.

The next rung are mostly ex-academy, but are all regular-ish internationals who will now be on full contracts - Earl, Tompkins, Malins, Isiekwe. I’d imagine they are now compensated at a similar level to Goode, Maitland and Lozowski. You could maybe add Davies in to that as he was regularly featuring for Wales before he signed.

Other first team regulars like Wray or Lewington are probably on slightly above average salaries. However, I suspect a lot of the squad players will be on average money (I’m thinking of players like Woolstencroft or Taylor) and some of their main 23 like McFarland and Mawi will be cheap for now, but won’t be as cheap come renewal time.

When you break it down, it might be possible that they’re within the cap, but I count 7 very expensive players and 4-7 who will be well above average. That’s a lot. Perhaps their squad players are paid peanuts?

I'd be surprised if the likes of Wray and Lewington are above average. Wray is Saracens all his days and would likely be on a lower contract than he could get elsewhere because of that loyalty. Lewington joined from a relegation-bait London Irish - if given the choice between staying at them with a larger contract or moving to Saracens, winning stuff, not getting thumped regularly, and potentially getting more England recognition, I'd imagine he'd be willing to accept a smaller contract. Same with Tompkins - quite apart from anything else, when he left, he went to The Dragons. You think he's not willing to be paid under his market value to be back at a successful, happy club where he's comfortable and loved?

The majority of that squad is either Saracens-developed, mostly Saracens-developed, or signed from smaller clubs. I'd imagine they play very hard ball with contract renegotiation - "This is the offer to stay at Saracens - to play at the top of the table, with Maro Itoje and Owen Farrell, to be in a successful team that catches the eye of the international selectors. We developed you, you enjoy it here, it's a good atmosphere, and you know we take care of our players off the pitch. I know you can get more money elsewhere and, if you want to go, we'll miss you. But that's the offer on the table here and we can't afford to give you anything else, so take it or let us know that you're moving on so we can start preparing for life after you."

Puja

Would you change your job to get paid less?

I always find it strange that we talk like that about sportspeople. Why would they go elsewhere to get less money unless there was a promise of more money later...

I might take a slightly lower salary (5%?) to work in a better location or area. But I wouldn't be taking 15% less etc.

Using Lewington as an example, yes he was leaving Irish, but he was being chased by numerous clubs. It was a long way from a pity, we can see the potential, pickup.

To win stuff and join that culture, then plenty might. Swinson is on record as saying he had decided to retire until the call came from Sarries and that he’s not on much money. Brits has stated he turned down bigger contracts to stay.
Ford took less money to leave Leicester for Sale.

Iirc, which is doubtful, they were £1.2mil-ish over the cap in a couple of seasons and just under £2mil over in the season they were caught.
Get rid of Williams, Skelton and Spencer and you wouldn’t be too far off.
For the £2ish mil season that included the over valuation Itoje’s image rights by £800k which was PwC’s fault.

Mellsblue wrote:To win stuff and join that culture, then plenty might. Swinson is on record as saying he had decided to retire until the call came from Sarries and that he’s not on much money. Brits has stated he turned down bigger contracts to stay.
Ford took less money to leave Leicester for Sale.

Iirc, which is doubtful, they were £1.2mil-ish over the cap in a couple of seasons and just under £2mil over in the season they were caught.
Get rid of Williams, Skelton and Spencer and you wouldn’t be too far off.
For the £2ish mil season that included the over valuation Itoje’s image rights by £800k which was PwC’s fault.

Brits was there during the salary cap scandal, I'd not take his word for anything. We have no idea just how far over they were during that time, because it was all brushed under the carpet.

As a last hurrah, getting to join a team like Sarries/Toulouse etc isn't bad, he might be on less than he was, but at the same time, it may be more than anyone else was offering (if anyone was). And who knows what business help he's going to be getting from them after.

How much less money did Ford take? And I thought that was at least partially related to his dad's departure. Not many players are going to have parents also in the circuit.

Raggs wrote:I might take a slightly lower salary (5%?) to work in a better location or area. But I wouldn't be taking 15% less etc.

Using Lewington as an example, yes he was leaving Irish, but he was being chased by numerous clubs. It was a long way from a pity, we can see the potential, pickup.

Does anyone you could work for guarantee you European rugby, finals at Twickenham and a better chance of representing England whilst still paying you six figures to play a sport you love?
Does somewhere you could work offer to train you, and have such a great track record of doing so, for when you retire in your 30’s? Will you be a millionaire by 32 even if you took a 10/15% pay cut?
Do you have the mindset that nearly all elite sportspeople have that you don’t really give a sh!t about anything other than winning?