New and Improved EPS Watch/Player Form Thread

[Spiffy]

His sole cap was as a sub for the Boks playing a one off game in the US Vs Wales. The Boks lost. Think it was a fairly young Boks side. Iirc all three brothers were called up at the same time though they didn't all play together.

He's a good club player. Got a bit of everything but lacks a stand out skill set to set him apart. Not dissimilar to Sam James also at Sale. Unlikely to trouble international selection and you can't change international affiliation based on residency. He's only be EQ now if he had English parentage or was born here.

Since you mention Sam James - he is another player who I think is probably quite underrated. Totally reliable and often very good. If he'd had a few caps early in his career, he might well have nailed down an England slot, but missed the boat. Unfortunately for hm - he was around at the same time as Jonathan Joseph who was a great 13 on both sides of the ball at his peak, but somehow now does not seem to get the recognition he deserves. Someone like Joseph at OC could transform the current England midfield.

[Mr Mwenda]

Saw the bath highlights, every time Lawrence holds the ball in one hand I expect him to drop. Seems a really silly habit to have.

[TheNomad]

His sole cap was as a sub for the Boks playing a one off game in the US Vs Wales. The Boks lost. Think it was a fairly young Boks side. Iirc all three brothers were called up at the same time though they didn't all play together.

He's a good club player. Got a bit of everything but lacks a stand out skill set to set him apart. Not dissimilar to Sam James also at Sale. Unlikely to trouble international selection and you can't change international affiliation based on residency. He's only be EQ now if he had English parentage or was born here.

Since you mention Sam James - he is another player who I think is probably quite underrated. Totally reliable and often very good. If he'd had a few caps early in his career, he might well have nailed down an England slot, but missed the boat. Unfortunately for hm - he was around at the same time as Jonathan Joseph who was a great 13 on both sides of the ball at his peak, but somehow now does not seem to get the recognition he deserves. Someone like Joseph at OC could transform the current England midfield.

Joseph MkII perhaps?!

[FKAS]

Sam James I thought would break through for England but the time for that was five years ago. He's about to turn 30 and there's younger options coming through. He's another good all rounder and great club option but his lack of pace or other stand out attributes mean he's unlikely to get called up.

Sounds harsh but maybe if he'd moved clubs and not been so loyal to Sale through some tough times there he might have had different development opportunities. There's not many players at 6ft5 and nearly 16 stone that can play 10,12,13,15.

[Banquo]

But, Coka, for example, has never got close to Daly at international level so why is comparing the two at club level not relevant? I think Daly's England days are close to their end but I have seen nothing to suggest that Coka is a candidate to take over - except at club level. He is nowhere near IFW and I don't think SB was far out with the back three players in his squad.

Agreed. The commentary was lauding Cokanasiga to the rooftops, but he didn't seem to do anything that extraordinary for Bath - both his tries were walk-ins to finish off team moves and he was fine without being outstanding otherwise.

Plus, I don't think he suits the England defensive shape - he's not nimble enough to fit into FJones's role for a winger, nor do I think he's got the game intelligence.

One bloke who impresses me every time I see him play is Rob duPreez of Sale. He is not flash but very consistent, does everything well, is pretty big, has adequate pace and a lot of rugby intelligence. He had one Bok cap in 2018, has been at Sale since 2019, so is he English qualified by dint of residency and time elapsed since last cap? Since Ford returned to Sale he has been playing mainly 13, but has masses of experience at FH. He is 30 now so will probably never have the chance. Would be interested to hear how posters rate this guy.

As mentioned above, you can't switch nationality for anything but birth or parentage, but on quality alone I'd agree that he would've been worth a look at as a possible Slade alternative in the 13 channel. As you said, very consistent and skillful player.

Puja

I disagree on Coka. He cut some terrific lines off his wing, his kick chase was agressive and generally looked a quality player- outstanding I thought and actually showed acuity in the lines off the wing. His tries were easy, but that wasn’t the reason he got motm imo.

[Oakboy]

But, Coka, for example, has never got close to Daly at international level so why is comparing the two at club level not relevant? I think Daly's England days are close to their end but I have seen nothing to suggest that Coka is a candidate to take over - except at club level. He is nowhere near IFW and I don't think SB was far out with the back three players in his squad.

Agreed. The commentary was lauding Cokanasiga to the rooftops, but he didn't seem to do anything that extraordinary for Bath - both his tries were walk-ins to finish off team moves and he was fine without being outstanding otherwise.

Plus, I don't think he suits the England defensive shape - he's not nimble enough to fit into FJones's role for a winger, nor do I think he's got the game intelligence.

One bloke who impresses me every time I see him play is Rob duPreez of Sale. He is not flash but very consistent, does everything well, is pretty big, has adequate pace and a lot of rugby intelligence. He had one Bok cap in 2018, has been at Sale since 2019, so is he English qualified by dint of residency and time elapsed since last cap? Since Ford returned to Sale he has been playing mainly 13, but has masses of experience at FH. He is 30 now so will probably never have the chance. Would be interested to hear how posters rate this guy.

As mentioned above, you can't switch nationality for anything but birth or parentage, but on quality alone I'd agree that he would've been worth a look at as a possible Slade alternative in the 13 channel. As you said, very consistent and skillful player.

Puja

I disagree on Coka. He cut some terrific lines off his wing, his kick chase was agressive and generally looked a quality player- outstanding I thought and actually showed acuity in the lines off the wing. His tries were easy, but that wasn’t the reason he got motm imo.

His size should make him a certainty but he has not used it well for England when picked. I think his hands are not good enough and his slowness on the turn will always leave him vulnerable defensively at international level. As I seem to say quite a bit, I'd love to be wrong (again!!).

[Puja]

But, Coka, for example, has never got close to Daly at international level so why is comparing the two at club level not relevant? I think Daly's England days are close to their end but I have seen nothing to suggest that Coka is a candidate to take over - except at club level. He is nowhere near IFW and I don't think SB was far out with the back three players in his squad.

Agreed. The commentary was lauding Cokanasiga to the rooftops, but he didn't seem to do anything that extraordinary for Bath - both his tries were walk-ins to finish off team moves and he was fine without being outstanding otherwise.

Plus, I don't think he suits the England defensive shape - he's not nimble enough to fit into FJones's role for a winger, nor do I think he's got the game intelligence.

One bloke who impresses me every time I see him play is Rob duPreez of Sale. He is not flash but very consistent, does everything well, is pretty big, has adequate pace and a lot of rugby intelligence. He had one Bok cap in 2018, has been at Sale since 2019, so is he English qualified by dint of residency and time elapsed since last cap? Since Ford returned to Sale he has been playing mainly 13, but has masses of experience at FH. He is 30 now so will probably never have the chance. Would be interested to hear how posters rate this guy.

As mentioned above, you can't switch nationality for anything but birth or parentage, but on quality alone I'd agree that he would've been worth a look at as a possible Slade alternative in the 13 channel. As you said, very consistent and skillful player.

Puja

I disagree on Coka. He cut some terrific lines off his wing, his kick chase was agressive and generally looked a quality player- outstanding I thought and actually showed acuity in the lines off the wing. His tries were easy, but that wasn’t the reason he got motm imo.

Right on time, interview in the papers today with him talking about the work he's been doing in training and how he's been looking to get involved off his wing: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/ ... ugby-union

Mention in there of him training at centre to try and improve him as a player, which I'm in favour of on general principles, but also I do quite like the idea of him as a centre. Sadly unlikely to happen at Bath with the number of options they already have there, but I think he could have a good impact at 13 in a George North style.

Puja

[Banquo]

Agreed. The commentary was lauding Cokanasiga to the rooftops, but he didn't seem to do anything that extraordinary for Bath - both his tries were walk-ins to finish off team moves and he was fine without being outstanding otherwise.

Plus, I don't think he suits the England defensive shape - he's not nimble enough to fit into FJones's role for a winger, nor do I think he's got the game intelligence.



As mentioned above, you can't switch nationality for anything but birth or parentage, but on quality alone I'd agree that he would've been worth a look at as a possible Slade alternative in the 13 channel. As you said, very consistent and skillful player.

Puja

I disagree on Coka. He cut some terrific lines off his wing, his kick chase was agressive and generally looked a quality player- outstanding I thought and actually showed acuity in the lines off the wing. His tries were easy, but that wasn’t the reason he got motm imo.

His size should make him a certainty but he has not used it well for England when picked. I think his hands are not good enough and his slowness on the turn will always leave him vulnerable defensively at international level. As I seem to say quite a bit, I'd love to be wrong (again!!).

I think his hands are pretty good tbh, and I'd hope he can keep improving his agility. Don't see him as a 13 to puja's 'point' tho.

[Scrumhead]

If he moves to the centres, I’d have thought 12 would be an easier transition?

I don’t see him making it as a winger under Borthwick. I think Felix Jones’ defensive system would brutally expose his flaws.

[Banquo]

If he moves to the centres, I’d have thought 12 would be an easier transition?

I don’t see him making it as a winger under Borthwick. I think Felix Jones’ defensive system would brutally expose his flaws.

unless of course, he's improved.

Then again, its brutally exposed current wingers flaws too.....

[Spiffy]

If he moves to the centres, I’d have thought 12 would be an easier transition?

I don’t see him making it as a winger under Borthwick. I think Felix Jones’ defensive system would brutally expose his flaws.

unless of course, he's improved.

Then again, its brutally exposed current wingers flaws too.....

Fair play to Coka - he has improved in looking for work and using his brain. Continued development could well see him on the England squad.

[Scrumhead]

I thought Freeman and IFW looked as though they were getting to grips with the system and had the game sense and physical attributes to play the roles being asked of them.

I don’t think Cokanasiga does. He might have improved in some regards, but he’s still short of the nous and ability to rapidly adjust his positioning.

I’m not saying he’s a bad player. I just don’t see him fitting into this set up.

[Banquo]

I thought Freeman and IFW looked as though they were getting to grips with the system and had the game sense and physical attributes to play the roles being asked of them.

I don’t think Cokanasiga does. He might have improved in some regards, but he’s still short of the nous and ability to rapidly adjust his positioning.

I’m not saying he’s a bad player. I just don’t see him fitting into this set up.

Both IFW and Freeman got disconnected and struggled from time to time unsurprisingly, as had Daly before them. Takes a load of time and better communication.

Unless you see Coka trying it, neither of us know tbh. Personally I think Coka has had a rough ride and seems to be coming out the other side. Fascinating how fascinated we now are over a wingers defence

[Puja]

I thought Freeman and IFW looked as though they were getting to grips with the system and had the game sense and physical attributes to play the roles being asked of them.

I don’t think Cokanasiga does. He might have improved in some regards, but he’s still short of the nous and ability to rapidly adjust his positioning.

I’m not saying he’s a bad player. I just don’t see him fitting into this set up.

Both IFW and Freeman got disconnected and struggled from time to time unsurprisingly, as had Daly before them. Takes a load of time and better communication.

Unless you see Coka trying it, neither of us know tbh. Personally I think Coka has had a rough ride and seems to be coming out the other side. Fascinating how fascinated we now are over a wingers defence

Given that this defensive system has to potential to be our major point of difference, I don't see why we wouldn't be. It's kinda important to the overall team performance and it's not like we're advocating picking carthorses who can do nothing but defend.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Coka's 26. I thought he was older. He's definitely one to consider for the summer tour. He does offer a physical presence that the other wings dont and I think his all round play has developed quite a lot over the last season or two.

[Which Tyler]

Coka's a good player, with moments of brilliance, and he's often unfairly maligned on here - especially his ball handling, which is brilliant for a winger.
However, the way he plays doesn't, and never has, fitted people's expectations for "big lad on wing" (which I thinknis why he gets so mucn criticism) whikst also bei v very much a confidence player, who went through some shit personally and lost his co fidence for a couple of years.
He's also not particularly rugby-intelligent, and is prone to making the wrong decisions.

He's also not a good fit for the Felix Jones defensive system, which requires highly agile wingers with excellent decision making.

[Oakboy]

Coka's 26. I thought he was older. He's definitely one to consider for the summer tour. He does offer a physical presence that the other wings dont and I think his all round play has developed quite a lot over the last season or two.

I sort of agree with that but also wonder about his core attitude. Having knocked Tuilagi and others in the past for seeking impact and loving the damage it caused (when getting through gaps should have been the aim), I suppose it would be hypocritical to accuse Coja of not liking the physical enough. Somehow, though, he just does not punch his weight for enough of games. He just could and should be more effective. Everyone praised his recent performance and that makes my point. In other games for Bath and in most of his England ones where was he?

Let's hope he finds himself and climbs the rankings. I'd probably put him at 7 or 8 in the wingers list currently.

[Scrumhead]

Coka's a good player, with moments of brilliance, and he's often unfairly maligned on here - especially his ball handling, which is brilliant for a winger.
However, the way he plays doesn't, and never has, fitted people's expectations for "big lad on wing" (which I thinknis why he gets so mucn criticism) whikst also bei v very much a confidence player, who went through some shit personally and lost his co fidence for a couple of years.
He's also not particularly rugby-intelligent, and is prone to making the wrong decisions.

He's also not a good fit for the Felix Jones defensive system, which requires highly agile wingers with excellent decision making.

Agreed. Pretty much the same points I made, just articulated better.

While Freeman and IFW may have been caught out at times, that’s to be expected for relatively inexperienced players learning a new system alongside unfamiliar team mates. I believe they have the skills and tactical awareness to get there though.

I think Murley could too in a similar way to IFW. Also, as much as I’ve been critical of Radwan defensively in the past, I actually think he could work quite well in this system given his pace and ability to recover quickly.

[fivepointer]

Coka's 26. I thought he was older. He's definitely one to consider for the summer tour. He does offer a physical presence that the other wings dont and I think his all round play has developed quite a lot over the last season or two.

I sort of agree with that but also wonder about his core attitude. Having knocked Tuilagi and others in the past for seeking impact and loving the damage it caused (when getting through gaps should have been the aim), I suppose it would be hypocritical to accuse Coja of not liking the physical enough. Somehow, though, he just does not punch his weight for enough of games. He just could and should be more effective. Everyone praised his recent performance and that makes my point. In other games for Bath and in most of his England ones where was he?

Let's hope he finds himself and climbs the rankings. I'd probably put him at 7 or 8 in the wingers list currently.

Who would be the 6 or 7 ahead of him?

Freeman and IFW for sure, but then who? I rate Murley but the pecking order thereafter does become a very close call between a number of players which, for me, would include Ibitoye.

[TheNomad]

I think another aspect to the winger debate is where we see Freeman longer term. We should be building IMO, even if it means some short term issues.

I'm undecided personally. I also think we need to consider whether Lawrence is right for the long term at 12, or if (as he is at club level) we play him at 13. Freeman is one we can build around IMO. My gut instinct is that longer term, he'll be a better 13 than wing, albeit neither he nor Lawrence have the kind of distribution it would be nice (in an ideal world) to have in the centres.

Not that it changes the important question of pecking order at wing, but in a sense, if you land on a centre partnership you can get behind, it might influence the factors you're looking for at wing - and vice versa.

Thanks IFW coming into the mix has given us something we haven't had since a fit Watson IMO. I find it slightly surprising that no one has been discussing Sleightholme. Still pretty young (coming up to 24), plenty of gas and looks a lot stronger

[Mikey Brown]

It’s weird because if we’re just trying to mimic Kolbe/KLA suddenly Radwan and Ibitoye (Wade is getting on a bit I think) seem like they’d potentially be worth a look.

Murley, Thorley and Muir are all a bit more powerful and rounded players, but still fast and nimble. Roebuck looks handy, but I’m not sure agility is high on his list of qualities?

God knows what the deal is with Anthony Watson. I’m sort of assuming his England days are done, but I’ve said that before and then he comes back looking fantastic. I struggle not to (subconsciously) dismiss Sleightholme in a similar way as just never being fit.

It’s a shame Cokanasiga isn’t where we thought he might have been by now when he had that storming game vs Aus.

I also like the idea of Freeman at 13 long term, but he’s only played 7 games there and needs to be a full time club 13 first before adapting for England I’d say.

[FKAS]

Coka's 26. I thought he was older. He's definitely one to consider for the summer tour. He does offer a physical presence that the other wings dont and I think his all round play has developed quite a lot over the last season or two.

I sort of agree with that but also wonder about his core attitude. Having knocked Tuilagi and others in the past for seeking impact and loving the damage it caused (when getting through gaps should have been the aim), I suppose it would be hypocritical to accuse Coja of not liking the physical enough. Somehow, though, he just does not punch his weight for enough of games. He just could and should be more effective. Everyone praised his recent performance and that makes my point. In other games for Bath and in most of his England ones where was he?

Let's hope he finds himself and climbs the rankings. I'd probably put him at 7 or 8 in the wingers list currently.

Who would be the 6 or 7 ahead of him?

Freeman and IFW for sure, but then who? I rate Murley but the pecking order thereafter does become a very close call between a number of players which, for me, would include Ibitoye.

IFW, Freeman, Daly, Roebuck, Muir and Murley based on Borthwick squad selections.

[TheNomad]

I like Muir and Daly, but my feeling is that:

- looking ahead two or three years, investing in one of Roebuck, Murley, Coka or Sleightholme will get you to a better place than sticking with one of them; and
- while there may be a net gain from playing one of those two in the short term, it isn't sufficiently higher to justify the merits you get from the longer term potential outcome

Tricky call, I grant you

[FKAS]

I like Muir and Daly, but my feeling is that:

- looking ahead two or three years, investing in one of Roebuck, Murley, Coka or Sleightholme will get you to a better place than sticking with one of them; and
- while there may be a net gain from playing one of those two in the short term, it isn't sufficiently higher to justify the merits you get from the longer term potential outcome

Tricky call, I grant you

Daly is being slowly phased out. His experience and versatility are extremely useful in an adapting team that has very little caps in the back three.

Muir is only 28 so should be in his peak years, not a bad back up selection to have given his all round skillset.

Murley got injured at the wrong time and is on his way back, given his previous comments about Borthwick and work ons I suspect he'll make the summer squad if fit and in form. Roebuck has been in the squad as well so Borthwick rates him.

Coka well I think he disappointed in the world cup warm ups after what appeared to be a good camp in the build up. He's now 26 and needs to show some consistent form as he's not a young developing player now. These should be his prime years.

[Oakboy]

Coka's 26. I thought he was older. He's definitely one to consider for the summer tour. He does offer a physical presence that the other wings dont and I think his all round play has developed quite a lot over the last season or two.

I sort of agree with that but also wonder about his core attitude. Having knocked Tuilagi and others in the past for seeking impact and loving the damage it caused (when getting through gaps should have been the aim), I suppose it would be hypocritical to accuse Coja of not liking the physical enough. Somehow, though, he just does not punch his weight for enough of games. He just could and should be more effective. Everyone praised his recent performance and that makes my point. In other games for Bath and in most of his England ones where was he?

Let's hope he finds himself and climbs the rankings. I'd probably put him at 7 or 8 in the wingers list currently.

Who would be the 6 or 7 ahead of him?

Freeman and IFW for sure, but then who? I rate Murley but the pecking order thereafter does become a very close call between a number of players which, for me, would include Ibitoye.

Others have answered for me, so the names mentioned plus Arundell.