RugbyRebels

The age profile of the squad and the fact that we have a few moving to France means we’re likely to see about a third of this squad change for the 6N.

Likely/confirmed retirements: Marler, Cole, Lawes, Youngs, Care, May

Time to move on: Farrell, Daly, Tuilagi, Watson

Ineligible: Ribbans, J. Willis, Marchant

Foxtrot Oscar: B. Vunipola

I have a strange feeling Farrell might retire from England duty, but if not, we need to minimise his role.

The only ‘senior players’ I’d want to keep around are George and Ford, mostly for transition purposes. I could actually see Ford sticking around as the experienced 10 guiding the Smiths etc.

At a fundamental level, I think we need to take a step back and look at what we have. We aren’t a big, bullying pack and many of our better players are wasted in a kick chase system. When I look at Kolbe and Arendse playing for SA and Graham playing for Scotland, I think ‘Murley or Radwan could do something like that for us’.

My 6 Nations squad would be:

1. Genge / Rodd / VRR (or Obano)
2. George* / Dan / McGuigan**
3. Sinckler / Stuart / Collier***
4. Itoje / Isiekwe (or Coles)
5. O. Chessum / Martin
6. T. Curry / Ludlam
7. Earl / Pearson
8. Mercer / T. Willis
9. Mitchell / JvP / Quirke
10. M. Smith / Ford
11. Murley / OHC
12. Kelly / Atkinson
13. Lawrence / Slade
14. Radwan
15. Steward / Arundell

*For transition
**I know he’s not young, but he has less miles on the clock and is better than Walker or Blamire IMO
***Replaces Cole’s role of ‘I’m just here for scrums’

#justice4freeman

We won't move away from the kick chase game plan. We might well add to it when our new attack coach arrives.

Collier hasn't got the work rate to play in a Borthwick team. Eddie famously subbed him early in a game for the same reason. For Cole's limitations he's very good at getting up and back into the line time and time again. That being said I can't see his swansong continuing so we'll be looking at Painter or Heyes.

What will be interesting is to see the number 8 role and selection come the 6N. Previously Borthwick has been desperately trying to unearth a physically dominant 8. A young BillyV or an EQ Jasper Weise. It didn't happen and the old BillyV has been a let down. With Earl at 8 that role has evolved. If it stays the way it is, does it then bring back in the more mobile 8s that didn't make the cut initially. Could be great news for Mercer for instance.

Hopefully Alfie Barbeary can stay fit and provide a different option.

Jettisoning Watson seems somewhat premature!

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:24 am Jettisoning Watson seems somewhat premature!

not picking Freeman is worse. AW is knocking on 30 though

Great Bloke wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:21 am Hopefully Alfie Barbeary can stay fit and provide a different option.

Welcome to the madness of the EMB

Fingers crossed on Alfie

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:28 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:24 am Jettisoning Watson seems somewhat premature!

not picking Freeman is worse. AW is knocking on 30 though

If Mells hadn’t beaten me to it, I was going to say #justice4Freeman.

I simply forgot him and would happily swap him out for OHC.

It’s not so much me calling time on Watson … more his own body.

#freefreeman
#FREEfreeman
.....

#freeman ?

twitchy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:41 am #freefreeman
#FREEfreeman
.....

#freeman ?

#free2man

Will we find 2/3 hookers/FHs if we keep George and Ford in the mix? I have concerns that we will have similar issues to finding a 12 by having played Farrell there and a 9 by keeping Youngs. Yes, some experience can help but I'd rather George and Ford were out of the squad to just be called up in an emergency.

Sometimes necessity produces.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:52 am

Sometimes necessity produces.

Inside centre find we, patience young Padawan

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:43 am We won't move away from the kick chase game plan. We might well add to it when our new attack coach arrives.

Collier hasn't got the work rate to play in a Borthwick team. Eddie famously subbed him early in a game for the same reason. For Cole's limitations he's very good at getting up and back into the line time and time again. That being said I can't see his swansong continuing so we'll be looking at Painter or Heyes.

What will be interesting is to see the number 8 role and selection come the 6N. Previously Borthwick has been desperately trying to unearth a physically dominant 8. A young BillyV or an EQ Jasper Weise. It didn't happen and the old BillyV has been a let down. With Earl at 8 that role has evolved. If it stays the way it is, does it then bring back in the more mobile 8s that didn't make the cut initially. Could be great news for Mercer for instance.

I’m not naive to think we’ll totally move away from the kick chase game plan, but I do think we need to bolt on a lot more from an attacking POV.

I also agree on Earl’s success at 8 potentially paving the way for Mercer. Curry, Earl and Mercer could be a very exciting combination and as Mercer is a good lineout option, having two open sides wouldn’t compromise too much from an aerial POV. I’d happily look at Tom Willis as a more heavyweight option though.

Have to say, cupboard looks a bit bare ....but Dors has a plan, so great!

We can get a decent back 5 of the scrum out, good if green half backs, and back three prospects. But front row and midfield....

Great Bloke wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:21 am Hopefully Alfie Barbeary can stay fit and provide a different option.

I’m not sure Barbeary’s all that. He was hugely frustrating for us Wasps fans to watch. Great highlights reel but just not as effective as T Willis who Blackett kept selecting him over. Happy if he proves me wrong. Or moves back to hooker.

Beasties wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:30 am

Great Bloke wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:21 am Hopefully Alfie Barbeary can stay fit and provide a different option.

. Or moves back to hooker.

....is the right answer....ditto malins to 10

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:32 am

Beasties wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:30 am

Great Bloke wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:21 am Hopefully Alfie Barbeary can stay fit and provide a different option.

. Or moves back to hooker.

....is the right answer....ditto malins to 10

Have you written off Malins as a FB? I thought he moved back to Bristol to play there.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:43 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:32 am

Beasties wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:30 am

. Or moves back to hooker.

....is the right answer....ditto malins to 10

Have you written off Malins as a FB? I thought he moved back to Bristol to play there.

imo he doesn't have what it takes to play back three. and RICH LANE!!!!

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:28 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:24 am Jettisoning Watson seems somewhat premature!

not picking Freeman is worse. AW is knocking on 30 though

Bits of him are 30. A 70 year old looking for transplants may turn their nose up at bits of him though.

It's a crying shame, a he's the one outside back we've had for ages who you could point to and say, when he's fit he'd be in the conversation for any team in the world. Unfortunately he's never been able to stay fit for long enough for it to really count.

One of the big positives to come out of the world cup has been Earls showing what a bit of speed and dynamism off the back of the scrum can offer.

Hopefully he'll have provided an evidence base to convince Smoked Bratwurst that there is another way to having a big bloke running straight at the line to try to tie in multiple tacklers, and we can stop trying a rotating cast of unsuitable players trying to replicate 2016-19 Vunipola.

If we're ditching Lawes, and Martin looks like he can do the Kruis job next to Itoje, rather than dicking about as a 4/6 hybrid, then a backrow of Earl, Curry, Mercer, Ludlum, Willis, with Pearson or even someone like Chessum being used as an extra bulk at 6 if needed, looks like a solid approach to building a unit over the next 4 years. Assuming Curry's body doesn't stand up to another 4 years, we need to get one of the other athletes to be as good a reader of the game.

16th man wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 12:01 pm One of the big positives to come out of the world cup has been Earls showing what a bit of speed and dynamism off the back of the scrum can offer.

Hopefully he'll have provided an evidence base to convince Smoked Bratwurst that there is another way to having a big bloke running straight at the line to try to tie in multiple tacklers, and we can stop trying a rotating cast of unsuitable players trying to replicate 2016-19 Vunipola.

If we're ditching Lawes, and Martin looks like he can do the Kruis job next to Itoje, rather than dicking about as a 4/6 hybrid, then a backrow of Earl, Curry, Mercer, Ludlum, Willis, with Pearson or even someone like Chessum being used as an extra bulk at 6 if needed, looks like a solid approach to building a unit over the next 4 years. Assuming Curry's body doesn't stand up to another 4 years, we need to get one of the other athletes to be as good a reader of the game.

yep back 5 forward options are ok. Make Itoje skipper. Keep Mitchell and maybe Smith M together, or possibly keep Ford. Bring Freeman and Arundell in and play them. Get Dan playing and Barbeary re-convert to hooker.

16th man wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:55 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:28 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:24 am Jettisoning Watson seems somewhat premature!

not picking Freeman is worse. AW is knocking on 30 though

Bits of him are 30. Unfortunately he's never been able to stay fit for long enough for it to really count.

This would describe 75% of England rugby players over the last 10 years. Sadly, only 20% have shown the quality he did in Oz last summer.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:52 am Will we find 2/3 hookers/FHs if we keep George and Ford in the mix? I have concerns that we will have similar issues to finding a 12 by having played Farrell there and a 9 by keeping Youngs. Yes, some experience can help but I'd rather George and Ford were out of the squad to just be called up in an emergency.

Sometimes necessity produces.

There’s a saying about babies and bath water…

I’m still against this blacklisting players from test rugby because they’re not in premiership ( which as I mentioned needs sliming down into 5 Provinces if it is to be truly aligned to serving national needs - probably worthy of a thread on its own as I know this is polarising!)

Major issues include finding a really solid scrummaging front row to take up the mantle of Marler and Cole. This would leave. Genge and Sinckler to both be used a bit more creatively e.g given cupboard is bear on power tight carrying 8’s ( T Willis aside ), I would not be averse to see the experiment of Genge or Sinckler tried out at 8 - they’ve the handling skills and power to make a go of it I’d have thought? (and frankly both are a step up in pace and mobility from a trundling Billy V).

On another matter we need a credible loose head lock alternative option to Itoje - he looks to have been flogged to a standstlll and cast in this unglamourous grafting role at the expense of his earlier fetching and poaching talents - I actually think that 4 shirt should be a straight shoot out between whoever is the form player out of Itoje and Martin going forward with the tighthead lock berth reserved for the best of Launchbury, Chessum brothers or any other up and comers who can bring some of the qualities of a Simon Shawesque big but skillful lock.