Props
Moderator: Puja
-
- Posts: 3564
- Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:19 pm
Props
Nice piece from Will Kelleher in The TimesL
Patience, prop camps and ‘ugly’ idols – how England are fixing scrum
The development of front-row forwards is being overhauled to prevent a repeat of World Cup failures
In two consecutive Rugby World Cups, South Africa have beaten England thanks to the superiority of their scrum. Many in the game have decided enough is enough.
Joe Marler, 33, and Dan Cole, 36, remain two of the best English exponents of the art of scrummaging but their careers are coming to a close. Some people, such as the 2003 World Cup-winning forwards coach Phil Keith-Roach, wonder whether the more recent generations of English props really live for scrums any more. There has been some soul-searching.
The questions is: how do England reinstate themselves as a world-class scrumming nation? And there is good news. Former front-row forwards are rallying to address the issue; so, too, is the RFU. Here, The Times analyses how the next generation of front-row forwards are being shaped.
Inside project prop
Marler joked in The Times last week that he and Cole had concocted a plan to divide the country in half and train props in the north and south before meeting at an M1 services to discuss their crop. His gag was not far from the reality. In November, the RFU appointed Nathan Catt as its first scrum pathway coach. The 35-year-old played 170 times for Bath over 12 years before retiring through injury in 2020 to become a scrum coach for their youth section.
He now does this for the whole country. Catt will work specifically with under-16 to under-20 male front-row forwards, support the women’s game, too, and help with talent identification. He will try to establish a coaching and technical standard that stretches all the way to Steve Borthwick’s England team. Underpinning this is one fairly simple goal: build England props.
The first positive step towards repairing the potholed pathway came in September, when the RFU found 26 of the biggest, strongest players between the ages of 16 and 19 and gathered them at Bisham Abbey for a two-day “front-five” camp.
It was run by the under-20s coaches Jonathan Pendlebury and Andy Titterrell and guests included: England’s Mako Vunipola; Joe Gray, the former Saracens and Harlequins hooker and now London Scottish coach, who focused on lineouts; Catt himself; executives from the RFU and Premiership Rugby, in Conor O’Shea and Nigel Melville; and nutritionists and psychologists.
One who went was Tye Raymont, an 18-year-old tight-head from Leeds, who was snapped up by Sale Sharks from the Yorkshire academy. He idolises Manu Tuilagi in his club team, but wants to be a dominant tight-head prop.
“I learnt a lot about technique,” he says. “Gym is a massive thing for props. The core and neck work, getting strong. Keep sticking at it and over time it’ll come. I want to be the best I can, so that in five years’ time if I’m called into the England camp, or the team, I’m confident I’m going to dominate.”
Plenty of raw talent is around. At Gloucester, there is Afolabi Fasogbon, a 19-year-old, 6ft 3in, 20st 11lb tight-head prop; and at Sale, there is Asher Opoku-Fordjour, also 19, 5ft 11in and 17st 6lb, who is already enjoying Gallagher Premiership and Champions Cup cameos.
Catt focuses on “body awareness”, emphasising what a strong pushing position looks and feels like through exercises that help groove good habits early. The basic shape is simple. “But it’s about the details of how we get there,” Catt says.
He borrows some of the scrum exercises devised by Petrus du Plessis — the South African who played for Saracens and most recently coached Australia’s forwards — and formulates his own. He hooks props to a series of resistance bands that replicate scrum dynamics. For example, for a loose-head, he uses a band pulling down the outside arm or lifting up through the chest, both of which an opposing tight-head would try to do.
The pivotal element is maintaining a neutral spine, or as Catt terms it, a “spirit-level spine”. In one exercise, he gets a prop into their scrummaging position and then measures the angle of their back with a spirit-level app. He then asks whether they think their back is flat, or pointing upwards or downwards, and compares their perception against the reality. Gradually, they learn what the best position feels like during the set-up, the bind phase, the engage and the shove.
Catt will also send his youngsters clips of every scrum from the World Cup semi-finals and final. Pick a prop you like, he says, and try to replicate their “best practices”. The hope is that a new generation of players choose Cole’s spine as the object of their admiration.
No scrum, no win
Technique is one thing, but at some point these young props have to learn to love the scrum. Over the past 20 years, since the days of Keith-Roach, there has been a desire for the English prop to offer everything: carrying, tackling, lifting, passing, open running and scrummaging class. They are not always compatible.
Ellis Genge and Kyle Sinckler — the props on the field when England lost the crucial scrum in the semi-final against South Africa — are “transition” props, having switched from No 8 and centre and worked endlessly on set-piece technique. They are two of the best examples of the dynamic all-court prop English rugby has sought, a category in which the Ireland forward Tadhg Furlong is the exemplar.
“I question whether they actually want to scrummage — if that’s what they adore, if that’s what they see as their lifeblood,” Keith-Roach told The Times last month. It certainly is for Marler, Cole and Frans Malherbe. The outstanding South African tight-head made one carry for zero metres in the 2019 World Cup final, and three carries for one metre in the 2023 edition, and yet no one questions that he is one of the most valuable Springboks.
In England, the attitude has shifted and the search has begun for those who will scrum first. The rest can be added. “We have to make props as competent as possible at scrummaging,” Catt says. “And then try and make them good around the park.”
Dorian West — the replacement hooker in the 2003 World Cup-winning England team — is now the forwards coach at Sale Sharks and thinks this change is overdue. “I’ve been frustrated over the past ten years watching England not having a focus on the maul or scrum,” he says.
Adam Jones — the great tight-head who won 95 Wales caps and five for the 2009 and 2013 British & Irish Lions — is now searching for successors as the Harlequins forwards coach. “There’s nothing wrong with seeing a big kid who isn’t the fittest, but has that competitive streak in his eyes, getting hold of him, giving him a bit of training and nutrition, and making him a really effective player,” he explains.
“He doesn’t have to be some Adonis through the age grades. People used to say you have to be tough and nasty, but you don’t any more. You just have to be competitive, willing to put your body in a bad place. It’s as simple as: there’s a line on the floor, if I get over it, I’ve done my job and I’ve got one up on him.”
Simon McIntyre, 32, has played more than 200 Premiership matches at loose-head for Wasps and Sale, and still analyses scrums under his duvet into the early hours. “The front-rowers are a special type of people,” he says. “Deep, probably over-thinkers. It takes a lot of hours to perfect. I’m in my fifteenth year and am still learning. Any kind of overconfidence and the scrum will humble you.”
If Catt wants to find players who have the proper spirit for the toughest job on the field, at Sale they know they have one in Opoku-Fordjour. “You look at his power: he’s a tight-head prop with fast twitch,” Alex Sanderson, his director of rugby, says. “You just don’t get them. Rare as teddy bear shit.”
Opoku-Fordjour, 19, has already made waves in his debut season. Marler was overpowered by him at The Stoop two Fridays ago. He was so impressed, he extolled his virtues in a TV interview that night. Then, he dominated against Stade Français on his Champions Cup bow.
Born in Coventry, he began as a footballer. He was “a very quick boy” and so started rugby on the wing at Broadstreet RFC, then moved to rivals Kenilworth, gradually shifting forwards, before joining the Worcester developing player programme. He was cut at under-16 level, so went to Wasps until they folded last year.
Sale are delighted to have him on their books. “You have to enjoy the feeling of being dominant,” Opoku-Fordjour says. “The feeling of going forward is so good. It makes you feel on top of the world. You have to keep that feeling in your head and keep doing the stuff people aren’t seeing.”
He plays loose or tight, but wants to be a No 3, knowing those are valued like diamonds. “You see how much scrums mean in games — like the World Cup semi-final,” he says. “The scrum won South Africa the game, so people are understanding you need the props.”
No scrum, no win, as the French say.
Nurturing new Roses
Opoku-Fordjour was too advanced for the RFU’s front-five camp, but is now benefiting from a more sustainable development system. In the past, young props had to learn on the job, acquiring the reductively termed “dark arts” to survive.
Jones knows now that as a coach you cannot chuck a weights programme at young players and tell them to “get big”, as in days gone by. “I went from playing at my local club, Abercrave, to Neath and then Wales in about three years,” he says.
There is an understanding that it is a long process to refine techniques, build power, grow into their bodies and gain match experience at the right level. “They’re not going to learn by getting battered in the Premiership,” West says.
Jones uses Fin Baxter, his 21-year-old loose-head, as an example. His debut came at tight-head in a 2020 Champions Cup match against Racing 92. He was not ready. Since then, he has trained against Will Collier, Wilco Louw, Simon Kerrod, Dillon Lewis and Lovejoy Chawatama, but crucially found games at London Scottish in the Championship last year. “As a scrum coach you can help as much as you can,” Jones says. “But as a young player, let’s say you play Ealing one week and the tight-head absolutely drills you. How do you fix it in 12 weeks’ time when you play them again?”
Harlequins benefit from their strategic partnership with London Scottish. Exeter Chiefs use the University of Exeter, who have teams in National 2 West and the British Universities and Colleges Super League, Sale have the National 1 side Sale FC next door, and Leicester Tigers loan players to Nottingham regularly.
Not all clubs have these links. It is understood that the relationship between Premiership and Championship clubs is so fraught that Ealing Trailfinders and Coventry are refusing to take top-flight players on loan. Young Premiership props are not playing down the league pyramid nearly enough. Some spend seasons holding tackle bags at senior training, or play a handful of England Under-18 or Under-20 fixtures, which is a long way from the physicality of men’s rugby. The demise of the Premiership A-League has closed off another pathway.
In March, the RFU chief executive Bill Sweeney watched England Under-20 lose to France 42-7 at home in the Six Nations. He noted the English team had eight Premiership starts between them, while the French had 102 in the Top 14. “It takes a long time to learn to scrummage,” Catt says. “There’s a reason why you don’t have many 21-year-old Test props.”
Make scrums sexy again
Since the inauguration of the World Rugby player-of-the-year award in 2001, no prop has made the shortlist. It is an under-appreciated role. Front-row forwards across the game are sick of calls to minimise the significance of the scrum and worry that it is deterring applicants for a job that is fundamental to the sport.
“I worry that props, or the beauty of being a prop, is dying,” Marler says. “It’s not a glamorous position. Most people go, ‘I want to be Owen Farrell,’ or, ‘I want to be Marcus Smith,’ or Jonny May, Henry Arundell or Cadan Murley — the scorers. Look at Frans Malherbe. [He’s] central to South Africa’s world domination over the past eight years. You look at him and go, ‘Is he an athlete?’ ”
Marler has a marketing strategy he calls “Make scrums sexy again”. He understands that people are bored of endless scrum resets, but also the importance of a strong scrum. Not only does it provide space on the field by fixing 16 people in one spot, it provides space for different body types, the rugby cliche of “all shapes and sizes”.
He explains: “The amount of parents that come up to me and say, ‘My son loves you and Coley, he’s a big lad, struggles sometimes at school as people pick on him, but he gets to rugby and he’s found his place as a big unit in the front row.’ ”
Often the problem is that people find scrums too difficult to understand. Props want better explanations on TV, more meaningful statistics and graphics, and more respect from pundits.
David Flatman, the former England prop, understands that he has to demystify and communicate clearly while entertaining. He can be more detailed on TNT Sports when, as he says, “the educated minority” are watching, but has to use simpler terms on ITV during the Six Nations when nine million people tune in. “I never understand when professional pundits almost wear as a badge of honour how little they know about scrums,” he says.
So, how do we get posters of Cole on children’s walls? Flatman notes that most prop coverage focuses on their character, not their skill. “We love it when Gengey comes along,” he says. “He comes from one of the roughest parts of Bristol, is mixed race, super handsome, aggressive, his hero is a prize fighter. He’s manna from heaven — but people don’t necessarily celebrate what he does.
“With Marler, hardly anyone talks about his technical ability, which is off the charts. He’s the No 1 loose-head in the whole world. I wouldn’t pick anyone ahead of him.”
So the message is this: if you want props, start celebrating them. Luckily, so many fine front-rowers are trying to do that. Marler concludes: “It’s about us old, horrible, ugly, fat props who are leaving the game pulling our fingers out and caring about wanting more young, horrible, probably ugly — [but] a lot less fat these days — props to come through and enjoy what we enjoyed.”
Patience, prop camps and ‘ugly’ idols – how England are fixing scrum
The development of front-row forwards is being overhauled to prevent a repeat of World Cup failures
In two consecutive Rugby World Cups, South Africa have beaten England thanks to the superiority of their scrum. Many in the game have decided enough is enough.
Joe Marler, 33, and Dan Cole, 36, remain two of the best English exponents of the art of scrummaging but their careers are coming to a close. Some people, such as the 2003 World Cup-winning forwards coach Phil Keith-Roach, wonder whether the more recent generations of English props really live for scrums any more. There has been some soul-searching.
The questions is: how do England reinstate themselves as a world-class scrumming nation? And there is good news. Former front-row forwards are rallying to address the issue; so, too, is the RFU. Here, The Times analyses how the next generation of front-row forwards are being shaped.
Inside project prop
Marler joked in The Times last week that he and Cole had concocted a plan to divide the country in half and train props in the north and south before meeting at an M1 services to discuss their crop. His gag was not far from the reality. In November, the RFU appointed Nathan Catt as its first scrum pathway coach. The 35-year-old played 170 times for Bath over 12 years before retiring through injury in 2020 to become a scrum coach for their youth section.
He now does this for the whole country. Catt will work specifically with under-16 to under-20 male front-row forwards, support the women’s game, too, and help with talent identification. He will try to establish a coaching and technical standard that stretches all the way to Steve Borthwick’s England team. Underpinning this is one fairly simple goal: build England props.
The first positive step towards repairing the potholed pathway came in September, when the RFU found 26 of the biggest, strongest players between the ages of 16 and 19 and gathered them at Bisham Abbey for a two-day “front-five” camp.
It was run by the under-20s coaches Jonathan Pendlebury and Andy Titterrell and guests included: England’s Mako Vunipola; Joe Gray, the former Saracens and Harlequins hooker and now London Scottish coach, who focused on lineouts; Catt himself; executives from the RFU and Premiership Rugby, in Conor O’Shea and Nigel Melville; and nutritionists and psychologists.
One who went was Tye Raymont, an 18-year-old tight-head from Leeds, who was snapped up by Sale Sharks from the Yorkshire academy. He idolises Manu Tuilagi in his club team, but wants to be a dominant tight-head prop.
“I learnt a lot about technique,” he says. “Gym is a massive thing for props. The core and neck work, getting strong. Keep sticking at it and over time it’ll come. I want to be the best I can, so that in five years’ time if I’m called into the England camp, or the team, I’m confident I’m going to dominate.”
Plenty of raw talent is around. At Gloucester, there is Afolabi Fasogbon, a 19-year-old, 6ft 3in, 20st 11lb tight-head prop; and at Sale, there is Asher Opoku-Fordjour, also 19, 5ft 11in and 17st 6lb, who is already enjoying Gallagher Premiership and Champions Cup cameos.
Catt focuses on “body awareness”, emphasising what a strong pushing position looks and feels like through exercises that help groove good habits early. The basic shape is simple. “But it’s about the details of how we get there,” Catt says.
He borrows some of the scrum exercises devised by Petrus du Plessis — the South African who played for Saracens and most recently coached Australia’s forwards — and formulates his own. He hooks props to a series of resistance bands that replicate scrum dynamics. For example, for a loose-head, he uses a band pulling down the outside arm or lifting up through the chest, both of which an opposing tight-head would try to do.
The pivotal element is maintaining a neutral spine, or as Catt terms it, a “spirit-level spine”. In one exercise, he gets a prop into their scrummaging position and then measures the angle of their back with a spirit-level app. He then asks whether they think their back is flat, or pointing upwards or downwards, and compares their perception against the reality. Gradually, they learn what the best position feels like during the set-up, the bind phase, the engage and the shove.
Catt will also send his youngsters clips of every scrum from the World Cup semi-finals and final. Pick a prop you like, he says, and try to replicate their “best practices”. The hope is that a new generation of players choose Cole’s spine as the object of their admiration.
No scrum, no win
Technique is one thing, but at some point these young props have to learn to love the scrum. Over the past 20 years, since the days of Keith-Roach, there has been a desire for the English prop to offer everything: carrying, tackling, lifting, passing, open running and scrummaging class. They are not always compatible.
Ellis Genge and Kyle Sinckler — the props on the field when England lost the crucial scrum in the semi-final against South Africa — are “transition” props, having switched from No 8 and centre and worked endlessly on set-piece technique. They are two of the best examples of the dynamic all-court prop English rugby has sought, a category in which the Ireland forward Tadhg Furlong is the exemplar.
“I question whether they actually want to scrummage — if that’s what they adore, if that’s what they see as their lifeblood,” Keith-Roach told The Times last month. It certainly is for Marler, Cole and Frans Malherbe. The outstanding South African tight-head made one carry for zero metres in the 2019 World Cup final, and three carries for one metre in the 2023 edition, and yet no one questions that he is one of the most valuable Springboks.
In England, the attitude has shifted and the search has begun for those who will scrum first. The rest can be added. “We have to make props as competent as possible at scrummaging,” Catt says. “And then try and make them good around the park.”
Dorian West — the replacement hooker in the 2003 World Cup-winning England team — is now the forwards coach at Sale Sharks and thinks this change is overdue. “I’ve been frustrated over the past ten years watching England not having a focus on the maul or scrum,” he says.
Adam Jones — the great tight-head who won 95 Wales caps and five for the 2009 and 2013 British & Irish Lions — is now searching for successors as the Harlequins forwards coach. “There’s nothing wrong with seeing a big kid who isn’t the fittest, but has that competitive streak in his eyes, getting hold of him, giving him a bit of training and nutrition, and making him a really effective player,” he explains.
“He doesn’t have to be some Adonis through the age grades. People used to say you have to be tough and nasty, but you don’t any more. You just have to be competitive, willing to put your body in a bad place. It’s as simple as: there’s a line on the floor, if I get over it, I’ve done my job and I’ve got one up on him.”
Simon McIntyre, 32, has played more than 200 Premiership matches at loose-head for Wasps and Sale, and still analyses scrums under his duvet into the early hours. “The front-rowers are a special type of people,” he says. “Deep, probably over-thinkers. It takes a lot of hours to perfect. I’m in my fifteenth year and am still learning. Any kind of overconfidence and the scrum will humble you.”
If Catt wants to find players who have the proper spirit for the toughest job on the field, at Sale they know they have one in Opoku-Fordjour. “You look at his power: he’s a tight-head prop with fast twitch,” Alex Sanderson, his director of rugby, says. “You just don’t get them. Rare as teddy bear shit.”
Opoku-Fordjour, 19, has already made waves in his debut season. Marler was overpowered by him at The Stoop two Fridays ago. He was so impressed, he extolled his virtues in a TV interview that night. Then, he dominated against Stade Français on his Champions Cup bow.
Born in Coventry, he began as a footballer. He was “a very quick boy” and so started rugby on the wing at Broadstreet RFC, then moved to rivals Kenilworth, gradually shifting forwards, before joining the Worcester developing player programme. He was cut at under-16 level, so went to Wasps until they folded last year.
Sale are delighted to have him on their books. “You have to enjoy the feeling of being dominant,” Opoku-Fordjour says. “The feeling of going forward is so good. It makes you feel on top of the world. You have to keep that feeling in your head and keep doing the stuff people aren’t seeing.”
He plays loose or tight, but wants to be a No 3, knowing those are valued like diamonds. “You see how much scrums mean in games — like the World Cup semi-final,” he says. “The scrum won South Africa the game, so people are understanding you need the props.”
No scrum, no win, as the French say.
Nurturing new Roses
Opoku-Fordjour was too advanced for the RFU’s front-five camp, but is now benefiting from a more sustainable development system. In the past, young props had to learn on the job, acquiring the reductively termed “dark arts” to survive.
Jones knows now that as a coach you cannot chuck a weights programme at young players and tell them to “get big”, as in days gone by. “I went from playing at my local club, Abercrave, to Neath and then Wales in about three years,” he says.
There is an understanding that it is a long process to refine techniques, build power, grow into their bodies and gain match experience at the right level. “They’re not going to learn by getting battered in the Premiership,” West says.
Jones uses Fin Baxter, his 21-year-old loose-head, as an example. His debut came at tight-head in a 2020 Champions Cup match against Racing 92. He was not ready. Since then, he has trained against Will Collier, Wilco Louw, Simon Kerrod, Dillon Lewis and Lovejoy Chawatama, but crucially found games at London Scottish in the Championship last year. “As a scrum coach you can help as much as you can,” Jones says. “But as a young player, let’s say you play Ealing one week and the tight-head absolutely drills you. How do you fix it in 12 weeks’ time when you play them again?”
Harlequins benefit from their strategic partnership with London Scottish. Exeter Chiefs use the University of Exeter, who have teams in National 2 West and the British Universities and Colleges Super League, Sale have the National 1 side Sale FC next door, and Leicester Tigers loan players to Nottingham regularly.
Not all clubs have these links. It is understood that the relationship between Premiership and Championship clubs is so fraught that Ealing Trailfinders and Coventry are refusing to take top-flight players on loan. Young Premiership props are not playing down the league pyramid nearly enough. Some spend seasons holding tackle bags at senior training, or play a handful of England Under-18 or Under-20 fixtures, which is a long way from the physicality of men’s rugby. The demise of the Premiership A-League has closed off another pathway.
In March, the RFU chief executive Bill Sweeney watched England Under-20 lose to France 42-7 at home in the Six Nations. He noted the English team had eight Premiership starts between them, while the French had 102 in the Top 14. “It takes a long time to learn to scrummage,” Catt says. “There’s a reason why you don’t have many 21-year-old Test props.”
Make scrums sexy again
Since the inauguration of the World Rugby player-of-the-year award in 2001, no prop has made the shortlist. It is an under-appreciated role. Front-row forwards across the game are sick of calls to minimise the significance of the scrum and worry that it is deterring applicants for a job that is fundamental to the sport.
“I worry that props, or the beauty of being a prop, is dying,” Marler says. “It’s not a glamorous position. Most people go, ‘I want to be Owen Farrell,’ or, ‘I want to be Marcus Smith,’ or Jonny May, Henry Arundell or Cadan Murley — the scorers. Look at Frans Malherbe. [He’s] central to South Africa’s world domination over the past eight years. You look at him and go, ‘Is he an athlete?’ ”
Marler has a marketing strategy he calls “Make scrums sexy again”. He understands that people are bored of endless scrum resets, but also the importance of a strong scrum. Not only does it provide space on the field by fixing 16 people in one spot, it provides space for different body types, the rugby cliche of “all shapes and sizes”.
He explains: “The amount of parents that come up to me and say, ‘My son loves you and Coley, he’s a big lad, struggles sometimes at school as people pick on him, but he gets to rugby and he’s found his place as a big unit in the front row.’ ”
Often the problem is that people find scrums too difficult to understand. Props want better explanations on TV, more meaningful statistics and graphics, and more respect from pundits.
David Flatman, the former England prop, understands that he has to demystify and communicate clearly while entertaining. He can be more detailed on TNT Sports when, as he says, “the educated minority” are watching, but has to use simpler terms on ITV during the Six Nations when nine million people tune in. “I never understand when professional pundits almost wear as a badge of honour how little they know about scrums,” he says.
So, how do we get posters of Cole on children’s walls? Flatman notes that most prop coverage focuses on their character, not their skill. “We love it when Gengey comes along,” he says. “He comes from one of the roughest parts of Bristol, is mixed race, super handsome, aggressive, his hero is a prize fighter. He’s manna from heaven — but people don’t necessarily celebrate what he does.
“With Marler, hardly anyone talks about his technical ability, which is off the charts. He’s the No 1 loose-head in the whole world. I wouldn’t pick anyone ahead of him.”
So the message is this: if you want props, start celebrating them. Luckily, so many fine front-rowers are trying to do that. Marler concludes: “It’s about us old, horrible, ugly, fat props who are leaving the game pulling our fingers out and caring about wanting more young, horrible, probably ugly — [but] a lot less fat these days — props to come through and enjoy what we enjoyed.”
-
- Posts: 6489
- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:42 pm
Re: Props
Very good. Pleasing to see England working at getting a better supply of props.
-
- Posts: 462
- Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:58 am
Re: Props
Very good and I agree with all of it. Watching the movement towards these ball playing props over the last fifteen years has been painful at times. There was a period when everyone had them so most nations balanced themselves out, but over the last 5-6 years (ish) it feels as though scrum time has become so crucial again.
Someone said on here recently (not sure who) that Will Collier would have been/is a wasted pick. Forget now and the future, the argument that we should be building to the next world cup/cycle, that's a different argument, think about the world cup just gone and I think he should've been there. As I've said a few times over the past few years, Sinckler hasn't been 'at it'. Not good enough in the scrum and not dangerous enough around the park either at the top level, not a big enough carrier and not generally physical enough against top sides anyway... you don't pick a prop primarily to have soft hands and act as a nice pivot in a backs move. Collier should've been an option in the WC to aid us at scrum time, that alone would've been a great value move/pick. Genge is different as he's an absolute monster in the loose and brings much needed physicality and edge, that being said, Marler's replacement must be a really dominant scrummager.
Someone said on here recently (not sure who) that Will Collier would have been/is a wasted pick. Forget now and the future, the argument that we should be building to the next world cup/cycle, that's a different argument, think about the world cup just gone and I think he should've been there. As I've said a few times over the past few years, Sinckler hasn't been 'at it'. Not good enough in the scrum and not dangerous enough around the park either at the top level, not a big enough carrier and not generally physical enough against top sides anyway... you don't pick a prop primarily to have soft hands and act as a nice pivot in a backs move. Collier should've been an option in the WC to aid us at scrum time, that alone would've been a great value move/pick. Genge is different as he's an absolute monster in the loose and brings much needed physicality and edge, that being said, Marler's replacement must be a really dominant scrummager.
- Puja
- Posts: 18185
- Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:16 pm
Re: Props
There was a period where I thought Genge was building to being a really good scrummager, but he seems to have fallen away from that the last couple of seasons. Possibly a case of focussing his training energies elsewhere, as you mentioned.TheDasher wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:38 pm Very good and I agree with all of it. Watching the movement towards these ball playing props over the last fifteen years has been painful at times. There was a period when everyone had them so most nations balanced themselves out, but over the last 5-6 years (ish) it feels as though scrum time has become so crucial again.
Someone said on here recently (not sure who) that Will Collier would have been/is a wasted pick. Forget now and the future, the argument that we should be building to the next world cup/cycle, that's a different argument, think about the world cup just gone and I think he should've been there. As I've said a few times over the past few years, Sinckler hasn't been 'at it'. Not good enough in the scrum and not dangerous enough around the park either at the top level, not a big enough carrier and not generally physical enough against top sides anyway... you don't pick a prop primarily to have soft hands and act as a nice pivot in a backs move. Collier should've been an option in the WC to aid us at scrum time, that alone would've been a great value move/pick. Genge is different as he's an absolute monster in the loose and brings much needed physicality and edge, that being said, Marler's replacement must be a really dominant scrummager.
Not sure Collier would've done much against South Africa tbh. I've never much rated him as a pure scrummager as much as some do - if we'd gone down that route, it could've been Nick Schonert for my money. The Tuima/Painter axis looks interesting going forwards - I'm hoping Some Ballwinning is planning on having both in his EPS so he can analyse how much each offers to the scrum and whether it's worth having just one of them or if you have to play both to get the full effect.
Puja
Backist Monk
-
- Posts: 7367
- Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:10 pm
Re: Props
Feels like this is primed for a Discovery+ mini series. "Prop School" where Dan Cole and Joe Marler each take a selection of front rowers fresh out of school without links to the professional game and put them through boot camp before a show down where Prem scouts are in attendance. Get some of their mates in for guest appearances/to do the leg work whilst Dan and Joe juggle playing and family.
Would raise the profile of props, Discovery+ get content that should help generate audience for their rugby product.
On a slightly more serious note, glad to see the set piece getting some build up. We've wanted props that are additional backrows for to long. Hopefully the focus on the core job will come good sooner as well as later.
Would raise the profile of props, Discovery+ get content that should help generate audience for their rugby product.
On a slightly more serious note, glad to see the set piece getting some build up. We've wanted props that are additional backrows for to long. Hopefully the focus on the core job will come good sooner as well as later.
-
- Posts: 1977
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:38 pm
Re: Props
1) We didn't lose 2019 just because of the scrum. That is a weird bit of revisionism that has snuck in.
2) its good we're looking at a smarter way of improving young props, rather than just pmping them full of supplements, beating them in a gym, then strapping them to a scrum machine, but... if the All Blacks had won that Final by running around the sides of the Boks, (which the were a couple of minor infringements off doing late on, even with 14 men) this whole sudden obsession with scrummaging props would be seen as a bit superfluous.
3) There's a reason that Generals preparing to fight the last war is a pejorative.
2) its good we're looking at a smarter way of improving young props, rather than just pmping them full of supplements, beating them in a gym, then strapping them to a scrum machine, but... if the All Blacks had won that Final by running around the sides of the Boks, (which the were a couple of minor infringements off doing late on, even with 14 men) this whole sudden obsession with scrummaging props would be seen as a bit superfluous.
3) There's a reason that Generals preparing to fight the last war is a pejorative.
- Puja
- Posts: 18185
- Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:16 pm
Re: Props
While you do make a lot of sense, I feel like point 2 is missing the crucial context that the All Blacks *had* scrummaging props themselves, which was a major part of them getting close. It's not just South Africa - there are a few teams that would be looking to score pens off our scrum right now.16th man wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 7:31 am 1) We didn't lose 2019 just because of the scrum. That is a weird bit of revisionism that has snuck in.
2) its good we're looking at a smarter way of improving young props, rather than just pmping them full of supplements, beating them in a gym, then strapping them to a scrum machine, but... if the All Blacks had won that Final by running around the sides of the Boks, (which the were a couple of minor infringements off doing late on, even with 14 men) this whole sudden obsession with scrummaging props would be seen as a bit superfluous.
3) There's a reason that Generals preparing to fight the last war is a pejorative.
And while 2019 wasn't *just* the scrum, it was an awfully big part of it. It was a very close game for the majority of it and could've gone either way. Having every scrum turn into a SA penalty for the middle chunk was a massive momentum sap and took possession and territory away from us (as well as putting scoreboard pressure on). If you'd waved a magic wand and given us parity, that game would've gone very differently.
I do wonder what will happen if, having put this effort in, the IRB then bring in laws to depower the scrum.
Puja
Backist Monk
- Oakboy
- Posts: 6844
- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:42 am
Re: Props
Puja, your point about penalties/momemtum sap etc. is the crucial issue. Yes, we could go 3 or 4 major internationals with props performing in the loose seeming to be more important but then with the wrong ref and damaging opposition tactics a scrum performance mullers us. Unless the IRB heads down the 'League' route it will always be so.Puja wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 9:02 amWhile you do make a lot of sense, I feel like point 2 is missing the crucial context that the All Blacks *had* scrummaging props themselves, which was a major part of them getting close. It's not just South Africa - there are a few teams that would be looking to score pens off our scrum right now.16th man wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 7:31 am 1) We didn't lose 2019 just because of the scrum. That is a weird bit of revisionism that has snuck in.
2) its good we're looking at a smarter way of improving young props, rather than just pmping them full of supplements, beating them in a gym, then strapping them to a scrum machine, but... if the All Blacks had won that Final by running around the sides of the Boks, (which the were a couple of minor infringements off doing late on, even with 14 men) this whole sudden obsession with scrummaging props would be seen as a bit superfluous.
3) There's a reason that Generals preparing to fight the last war is a pejorative.
And while 2019 wasn't *just* the scrum, it was an awfully big part of it. It was a very close game for the majority of it and could've gone either way. Having every scrum turn into a SA penalty for the middle chunk was a massive momentum sap and took possession and territory away from us (as well as putting scoreboard pressure on). If you'd waved a magic wand and given us parity, that game would've gone very differently.
I do wonder what will happen if, having put this effort in, the IRB then bring in laws to depower the scrum.
Puja
I have always advocated Marler starting ahead of Genge, for example. Build a solid base on the back of scrum parity (or better), then open things up if appropriate.
-
- Posts: 491
- Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2022 4:11 pm
Re: Props
Wanting international props to be able to scrum to an elite level first and do the other stuff as a bonus built on top (carry, act as first receiver, make 15 tackles a game etc) isn't fighting the last war. It's a long overdue and welcome shift in focus for me.
There's nothing worse in a game as a fan than that sinking feeling of being under huge pressure at the scrum and the opposition piling on the pressure there, milking pen after pen. You can't fix that in game (unless you are hiding a bomb squad on the bench). I've spent a lot of time as that fan watching LI over the years. It's rubbish
There's nothing worse in a game as a fan than that sinking feeling of being under huge pressure at the scrum and the opposition piling on the pressure there, milking pen after pen. You can't fix that in game (unless you are hiding a bomb squad on the bench). I've spent a lot of time as that fan watching LI over the years. It's rubbish
- jngf
- Posts: 1564
- Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:57 pm
Re: Props
Interesting that Genge and Sinckler played at No.8 and centre respectively, given we need more talent in both those positions maybe they could do worse than considering a career move back to these roles - they would after all add some raw power that we’ve been missing at 8 and 12 (Manu excepted). Also think there’s a question over whether our second row selection has place too much emphasis on lineout athleticism (and I’m not saying that that’s not vital btw) at all costs over scrummaging power and shear ballast - Maro Itoje and Lawes (pre moving to 6) being cases in point?Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:41 am Nice piece from Will Kelleher in The TimesL
Patience, prop camps and ‘ugly’ idols – how England are fixing scrum
The development of front-row forwards is being overhauled to prevent a repeat of World Cup failures
In two consecutive Rugby World Cups, South Africa have beaten England thanks to the superiority of their scrum. Many in the game have decided enough is enough.
Joe Marler, 33, and Dan Cole, 36, remain two of the best English exponents of the art of scrummaging but their careers are coming to a close. Some people, such as the 2003 World Cup-winning forwards coach Phil Keith-Roach, wonder whether the more recent generations of English props really live for scrums any more. There has been some soul-searching.
The questions is: how do England reinstate themselves as a world-class scrumming nation? And there is good news. Former front-row forwards are rallying to address the issue; so, too, is the RFU. Here, The Times analyses how the next generation of front-row forwards are being shaped.
Inside project prop
Marler joked in The Times last week that he and Cole had concocted a plan to divide the country in half and train props in the north and south before meeting at an M1 services to discuss their crop. His gag was not far from the reality. In November, the RFU appointed Nathan Catt as its first scrum pathway coach. The 35-year-old played 170 times for Bath over 12 years before retiring through injury in 2020 to become a scrum coach for their youth section.
He now does this for the whole country. Catt will work specifically with under-16 to under-20 male front-row forwards, support the women’s game, too, and help with talent identification. He will try to establish a coaching and technical standard that stretches all the way to Steve Borthwick’s England team. Underpinning this is one fairly simple goal: build England props.
The first positive step towards repairing the potholed pathway came in September, when the RFU found 26 of the biggest, strongest players between the ages of 16 and 19 and gathered them at Bisham Abbey for a two-day “front-five” camp.
It was run by the under-20s coaches Jonathan Pendlebury and Andy Titterrell and guests included: England’s Mako Vunipola; Joe Gray, the former Saracens and Harlequins hooker and now London Scottish coach, who focused on lineouts; Catt himself; executives from the RFU and Premiership Rugby, in Conor O’Shea and Nigel Melville; and nutritionists and psychologists.
One who went was Tye Raymont, an 18-year-old tight-head from Leeds, who was snapped up by Sale Sharks from the Yorkshire academy. He idolises Manu Tuilagi in his club team, but wants to be a dominant tight-head prop.
“I learnt a lot about technique,” he says. “Gym is a massive thing for props. The core and neck work, getting strong. Keep sticking at it and over time it’ll come. I want to be the best I can, so that in five years’ time if I’m called into the England camp, or the team, I’m confident I’m going to dominate.”
Plenty of raw talent is around. At Gloucester, there is Afolabi Fasogbon, a 19-year-old, 6ft 3in, 20st 11lb tight-head prop; and at Sale, there is Asher Opoku-Fordjour, also 19, 5ft 11in and 17st 6lb, who is already enjoying Gallagher Premiership and Champions Cup cameos.
Catt focuses on “body awareness”, emphasising what a strong pushing position looks and feels like through exercises that help groove good habits early. The basic shape is simple. “But it’s about the details of how we get there,” Catt says.
He borrows some of the scrum exercises devised by Petrus du Plessis — the South African who played for Saracens and most recently coached Australia’s forwards — and formulates his own. He hooks props to a series of resistance bands that replicate scrum dynamics. For example, for a loose-head, he uses a band pulling down the outside arm or lifting up through the chest, both of which an opposing tight-head would try to do.
The pivotal element is maintaining a neutral spine, or as Catt terms it, a “spirit-level spine”. In one exercise, he gets a prop into their scrummaging position and then measures the angle of their back with a spirit-level app. He then asks whether they think their back is flat, or pointing upwards or downwards, and compares their perception against the reality. Gradually, they learn what the best position feels like during the set-up, the bind phase, the engage and the shove.
Catt will also send his youngsters clips of every scrum from the World Cup semi-finals and final. Pick a prop you like, he says, and try to replicate their “best practices”. The hope is that a new generation of players choose Cole’s spine as the object of their admiration.
No scrum, no win
Technique is one thing, but at some point these young props have to learn to love the scrum. Over the past 20 years, since the days of Keith-Roach, there has been a desire for the English prop to offer everything: carrying, tackling, lifting, passing, open running and scrummaging class. They are not always compatible.
Ellis Genge and Kyle Sinckler — the props on the field when England lost the crucial scrum in the semi-final against South Africa — are “transition” props, having switched from No 8 and centre and worked endlessly on set-piece technique. They are two of the best examples of the dynamic all-court prop English rugby has sought, a category in which the Ireland forward Tadhg Furlong is the exemplar.
“I question whether they actually want to scrummage — if that’s what they adore, if that’s what they see as their lifeblood,” Keith-Roach told The Times last month. It certainly is for Marler, Cole and Frans Malherbe. The outstanding South African tight-head made one carry for zero metres in the 2019 World Cup final, and three carries for one metre in the 2023 edition, and yet no one questions that he is one of the most valuable Springboks.
In England, the attitude has shifted and the search has begun for those who will scrum first. The rest can be added. “We have to make props as competent as possible at scrummaging,” Catt says. “And then try and make them good around the park.”
Dorian West — the replacement hooker in the 2003 World Cup-winning England team — is now the forwards coach at Sale Sharks and thinks this change is overdue. “I’ve been frustrated over the past ten years watching England not having a focus on the maul or scrum,” he says.
Adam Jones — the great tight-head who won 95 Wales caps and five for the 2009 and 2013 British & Irish Lions — is now searching for successors as the Harlequins forwards coach. “There’s nothing wrong with seeing a big kid who isn’t the fittest, but has that competitive streak in his eyes, getting hold of him, giving him a bit of training and nutrition, and making him a really effective player,” he explains.
“He doesn’t have to be some Adonis through the age grades. People used to say you have to be tough and nasty, but you don’t any more. You just have to be competitive, willing to put your body in a bad place. It’s as simple as: there’s a line on the floor, if I get over it, I’ve done my job and I’ve got one up on him.”
Simon McIntyre, 32, has played more than 200 Premiership matches at loose-head for Wasps and Sale, and still analyses scrums under his duvet into the early hours. “The front-rowers are a special type of people,” he says. “Deep, probably over-thinkers. It takes a lot of hours to perfect. I’m in my fifteenth year and am still learning. Any kind of overconfidence and the scrum will humble you.”
If Catt wants to find players who have the proper spirit for the toughest job on the field, at Sale they know they have one in Opoku-Fordjour. “You look at his power: he’s a tight-head prop with fast twitch,” Alex Sanderson, his director of rugby, says. “You just don’t get them. Rare as teddy bear shit.”
Opoku-Fordjour, 19, has already made waves in his debut season. Marler was overpowered by him at The Stoop two Fridays ago. He was so impressed, he extolled his virtues in a TV interview that night. Then, he dominated against Stade Français on his Champions Cup bow.
Born in Coventry, he began as a footballer. He was “a very quick boy” and so started rugby on the wing at Broadstreet RFC, then moved to rivals Kenilworth, gradually shifting forwards, before joining the Worcester developing player programme. He was cut at under-16 level, so went to Wasps until they folded last year.
Sale are delighted to have him on their books. “You have to enjoy the feeling of being dominant,” Opoku-Fordjour says. “The feeling of going forward is so good. It makes you feel on top of the world. You have to keep that feeling in your head and keep doing the stuff people aren’t seeing.”
He plays loose or tight, but wants to be a No 3, knowing those are valued like diamonds. “You see how much scrums mean in games — like the World Cup semi-final,” he says. “The scrum won South Africa the game, so people are understanding you need the props.”
No scrum, no win, as the French say.
Nurturing new Roses
Opoku-Fordjour was too advanced for the RFU’s front-five camp, but is now benefiting from a more sustainable development system. In the past, young props had to learn on the job, acquiring the reductively termed “dark arts” to survive.
Jones knows now that as a coach you cannot chuck a weights programme at young players and tell them to “get big”, as in days gone by. “I went from playing at my local club, Abercrave, to Neath and then Wales in about three years,” he says.
There is an understanding that it is a long process to refine techniques, build power, grow into their bodies and gain match experience at the right level. “They’re not going to learn by getting battered in the Premiership,” West says.
Jones uses Fin Baxter, his 21-year-old loose-head, as an example. His debut came at tight-head in a 2020 Champions Cup match against Racing 92. He was not ready. Since then, he has trained against Will Collier, Wilco Louw, Simon Kerrod, Dillon Lewis and Lovejoy Chawatama, but crucially found games at London Scottish in the Championship last year. “As a scrum coach you can help as much as you can,” Jones says. “But as a young player, let’s say you play Ealing one week and the tight-head absolutely drills you. How do you fix it in 12 weeks’ time when you play them again?”
Harlequins benefit from their strategic partnership with London Scottish. Exeter Chiefs use the University of Exeter, who have teams in National 2 West and the British Universities and Colleges Super League, Sale have the National 1 side Sale FC next door, and Leicester Tigers loan players to Nottingham regularly.
Not all clubs have these links. It is understood that the relationship between Premiership and Championship clubs is so fraught that Ealing Trailfinders and Coventry are refusing to take top-flight players on loan. Young Premiership props are not playing down the league pyramid nearly enough. Some spend seasons holding tackle bags at senior training, or play a handful of England Under-18 or Under-20 fixtures, which is a long way from the physicality of men’s rugby. The demise of the Premiership A-League has closed off another pathway.
In March, the RFU chief executive Bill Sweeney watched England Under-20 lose to France 42-7 at home in the Six Nations. He noted the English team had eight Premiership starts between them, while the French had 102 in the Top 14. “It takes a long time to learn to scrummage,” Catt says. “There’s a reason why you don’t have many 21-year-old Test props.”
Make scrums sexy again
Since the inauguration of the World Rugby player-of-the-year award in 2001, no prop has made the shortlist. It is an under-appreciated role. Front-row forwards across the game are sick of calls to minimise the significance of the scrum and worry that it is deterring applicants for a job that is fundamental to the sport.
“I worry that props, or the beauty of being a prop, is dying,” Marler says. “It’s not a glamorous position. Most people go, ‘I want to be Owen Farrell,’ or, ‘I want to be Marcus Smith,’ or Jonny May, Henry Arundell or Cadan Murley — the scorers. Look at Frans Malherbe. [He’s] central to South Africa’s world domination over the past eight years. You look at him and go, ‘Is he an athlete?’ ”
Marler has a marketing strategy he calls “Make scrums sexy again”. He understands that people are bored of endless scrum resets, but also the importance of a strong scrum. Not only does it provide space on the field by fixing 16 people in one spot, it provides space for different body types, the rugby cliche of “all shapes and sizes”.
He explains: “The amount of parents that come up to me and say, ‘My son loves you and Coley, he’s a big lad, struggles sometimes at school as people pick on him, but he gets to rugby and he’s found his place as a big unit in the front row.’ ”
Often the problem is that people find scrums too difficult to understand. Props want better explanations on TV, more meaningful statistics and graphics, and more respect from pundits.
David Flatman, the former England prop, understands that he has to demystify and communicate clearly while entertaining. He can be more detailed on TNT Sports when, as he says, “the educated minority” are watching, but has to use simpler terms on ITV during the Six Nations when nine million people tune in. “I never understand when professional pundits almost wear as a badge of honour how little they know about scrums,” he says.
So, how do we get posters of Cole on children’s walls? Flatman notes that most prop coverage focuses on their character, not their skill. “We love it when Gengey comes along,” he says. “He comes from one of the roughest parts of Bristol, is mixed race, super handsome, aggressive, his hero is a prize fighter. He’s manna from heaven — but people don’t necessarily celebrate what he does.
“With Marler, hardly anyone talks about his technical ability, which is off the charts. He’s the No 1 loose-head in the whole world. I wouldn’t pick anyone ahead of him.”
So the message is this: if you want props, start celebrating them. Luckily, so many fine front-rowers are trying to do that. Marler concludes: “It’s about us old, horrible, ugly, fat props who are leaving the game pulling our fingers out and caring about wanting more young, horrible, probably ugly — [but] a lot less fat these days — props to come through and enjoy what we enjoyed.”
Last edited by jngf on Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 5973
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:33 am
Re: Props
Does anyone know what the plan is with the age group above?
Fasogbon and Opoku-Fordjour look like brilliant prospects, but we need the likes of Baxter, Brantingham, Haffar and Harper to get the right attention now. We need to avoid another Paul Hill/Kieran Brookes scenario.
Fasogbon and Opoku-Fordjour look like brilliant prospects, but we need the likes of Baxter, Brantingham, Haffar and Harper to get the right attention now. We need to avoid another Paul Hill/Kieran Brookes scenario.
-
- Posts: 5973
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:33 am
Re: Props
jngf wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:39 pm
Interesting that Genge and Sinckler played at No.8 and centre respectively, given we need more talent in both those positions maybe they could do worse than considering a career move back to these roles - they would after all add some raw power that we’ve been missing at 8 and 12 (Manu excepted). Also think there’s a question over whether our second row selection has place too much emphasis on lineout athleticism (and I’m not seeing that’s vital btw) over scrummaging power and shear ballast - Maro Itoje and Lawes (pre moving to 6) being cases in point?
Converting Sinckler to a centre at this point in his career = outright madness.
- jngf
- Posts: 1564
- Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:57 pm
Re: Props
But Scrummy, we’re not exactly swimming in top no 12’s are we?Scrumhead wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:43 pmjngf wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 1:39 pm
Interesting that Genge and Sinckler played at No.8 and centre respectively, given we need more talent in both those positions maybe they could do worse than considering a career move back to these roles - they would after all add some raw power that we’ve been missing at 8 and 12 (Manu excepted). Also think there’s a question over whether our second row selection has place too much emphasis on lineout athleticism (and I’m not seeing that’s vital btw) over scrummaging power and shear ballast - Maro Itoje and Lawes (pre moving to 6) being cases in point?
Converting Sinckler to a centre at this point in his career = outright madness.
-
- Posts: 5973
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:33 am
Re: Props
Having the ability to play at international in one position doesn’t mean a player would be at that level in a completely different one.
Sinckler would have to change so much and it would take him several years to get up to standard as a passable professional 12. There’s no guarantee he’d be good enough to be a test candidate. Besides, he doesn’t have that kind of time on his side.
Sinckler would have to change so much and it would take him several years to get up to standard as a passable professional 12. There’s no guarantee he’d be good enough to be a test candidate. Besides, he doesn’t have that kind of time on his side.
- Which Tyler
- Posts: 9359
- Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:43 pm
- Location: Tewkesbury
- Contact:
Re: Props
Why are you biting?
And go see your Dr - you're getting food poisoning!
And go see your Dr - you're getting food poisoning!
- Mellsblue
- Posts: 16086
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:58 am
Re: Props
Top class wummery. Well, I hope it’s wummery…
The irony of course being that one of our most dominant scrummagers, and guitar strummers, of the modern era Mr Andrew Sheridan played no8 as a school boy.
That said the thought of
10. George
12. Sinckler
13. Barbeary
reprising their school boy roles really does get the blood flowing. Give it 30mins in training and I reckon Sinckler and Barbeary would be interchanging without even needing to speak to each other. It’ll be like riding a bike.
The irony of course being that one of our most dominant scrummagers, and guitar strummers, of the modern era Mr Andrew Sheridan played no8 as a school boy.
That said the thought of
10. George
12. Sinckler
13. Barbeary
reprising their school boy roles really does get the blood flowing. Give it 30mins in training and I reckon Sinckler and Barbeary would be interchanging without even needing to speak to each other. It’ll be like riding a bike.
-
- Posts: 491
- Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2022 4:11 pm
Re: Props
Not sure where someone starts needs to be an issue really. Plenty of the best scrummaging props will have started out somewhere else on the field. Just thinking about LI before their demise. Both THs started out in the back row. A decade or so later one was a very decent scrummager (Chawatama) and the other was the bloke who gets around the park well but could be pretty vulnerable at set piece (Hoskins).Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 2:56 pm Top class wummery. Well, I hope it’s wummery…
The irony of course being that one of our most dominant scrummagers, and guitar strummers, of the modern era Mr Andrew Sheridan played no8 as a school boy.
That said the thought of
10. George
12. Sinckler
13. Barbeary
reprising their school boy roles really does get the blood flowing. Give it 30mins in training and I reckon Sinckler and Barbeary would be interchanging without even needing to speak to each other. It’ll be like riding a bike.
It's about putting the focus on progression back to the set piece first for me
- Mellsblue
- Posts: 16086
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:58 am
Re: Props
I was reacting to the idea that Genge and Sinckler aren’t dominant scrummagers due to the position they played before they even reached adulthood, ie I agree with you.Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 3:31 pmNot sure where someone starts needs to be an issue really. Plenty of the best scrummaging props will have started out somewhere else on the field. Just thinking about LI before their demise. Both THs started out in the back row. A decade or so later one was a very decent scrummager (Chawatama) and the other was the bloke who gets around the park well but could be pretty vulnerable at set piece (Hoskins).Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 2:56 pm Top class wummery. Well, I hope it’s wummery…
The irony of course being that one of our most dominant scrummagers, and guitar strummers, of the modern era Mr Andrew Sheridan played no8 as a school boy.
That said the thought of
10. George
12. Sinckler
13. Barbeary
reprising their school boy roles really does get the blood flowing. Give it 30mins in training and I reckon Sinckler and Barbeary would be interchanging without even needing to speak to each other. It’ll be like riding a bike.
It's about putting the focus on progression back to the set piece first for me
- jngf
- Posts: 1564
- Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:57 pm
Re: Props
I’m not quite seeing this passable professional 12 standard you talk of anywhere near or around test level - Manu asside (and frankly haven’t really seen it since the early 2000s in all honesty )Scrumhead wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 2:30 pm Having the ability to play at international in one position doesn’t mean a player would be at that level in a completely different one.
Sinckler would have to change so much and it would take him several years to get up to standard as a passable professional 12. There’s no guarantee he’d be good enough to be a test candidate. Besides, he doesn’t have that kind of time on his side.
so I would say needs must and I’m further not buying the need to take several years to convert positions if a player has the physicality and prior experience to play the role - would think that was more of a factor if a centre was having to learn the technicalities of becoming a prop ( which was of course Sinckler’s journey).
-
- Posts: 3564
- Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:19 pm
Re: Props
I think you're chosing a really bad example. I think any team in the world would love us to play Sink at 12. That he played there a bit as a kid doesn;t mean a great deal. It's not like a Tom Youngs who actually played adult rugby in his first position, and even then wasn;t good enough in said position.jngf wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 3:58 pmI’m not quite seeing this passable professional 12 standard you talk of anywhere near or around test level - Manu asside (and frankly haven’t really seen it since the early 2000s in all honesty )Scrumhead wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 2:30 pm Having the ability to play at international in one position doesn’t mean a player would be at that level in a completely different one.
Sinckler would have to change so much and it would take him several years to get up to standard as a passable professional 12. There’s no guarantee he’d be good enough to be a test candidate. Besides, he doesn’t have that kind of time on his side.
so I would say needs must and I’m further not buying the need to take several years to convert positions if a player has the physicality and prior experience to play the role - would think that was more of a factor if a centre was having to learn the technicalities of becoming a prop ( which was of course Sinckler’s journey).
-
- Posts: 20891
- Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:52 pm
Re: Props
I'm shocked!Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 8:57 amI think you're chosing a really bad example.jngf wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 3:58 pmI’m not quite seeing this passable professional 12 standard you talk of anywhere near or around test level - Manu asside (and frankly haven’t really seen it since the early 2000s in all honesty )Scrumhead wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 2:30 pm Having the ability to play at international in one position doesn’t mean a player would be at that level in a completely different one.
Sinckler would have to change so much and it would take him several years to get up to standard as a passable professional 12. There’s no guarantee he’d be good enough to be a test candidate. Besides, he doesn’t have that kind of time on his side.
so I would say needs must and I’m further not buying the need to take several years to convert positions if a player has the physicality and prior experience to play the role - would think that was more of a factor if a centre was having to learn the technicalities of becoming a prop ( which was of course Sinckler’s journey).
- jngf
- Posts: 1564
- Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:57 pm
Re: Props
Is Sink’s at 12 any worse a proposition than some of the other incumbents of this shirt in England side in past couple of decades?Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 8:57 amI think you're chosing a really bad example. I think any team in the world would love us to play Sink at 12. That he played there a bit as a kid doesn;t mean a great deal. It's not like a Tom Youngs who actually played adult rugby in his first position, and even then wasn;t good enough in said position.jngf wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 3:58 pmI’m not quite seeing this passable professional 12 standard you talk of anywhere near or around test level - Manu asside (and frankly haven’t really seen it since the early 2000s in all honesty )Scrumhead wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 2:30 pm Having the ability to play at international in one position doesn’t mean a player would be at that level in a completely different one.
Sinckler would have to change so much and it would take him several years to get up to standard as a passable professional 12. There’s no guarantee he’d be good enough to be a test candidate. Besides, he doesn’t have that kind of time on his side.
so I would say needs must and I’m further not buying the need to take several years to convert positions if a player has the physicality and prior experience to play the role - would think that was more of a factor if a centre was having to learn the technicalities of becoming a prop ( which was of course Sinckler’s journey).
It’s probably been the most problematic berth to fill of all (no England Head Coach getting it consistently right since 2003) and even now whilst there’s a nice crop of 13 candidates, we’re sadly one Manu injury away from yet another positional vacuum at inside centre in that I see few credible alternative candidates exactly holding their hands up for selection, do you?….