Who are you picking at 12?

[Mikey Brown]

If I'm typing I must be working!

No ifs, no buts. Who are you picking? Six nations starts tomorrow, but it is against Italy after all.

If I'm remembering correctly the options are pretty much down to Lawrence, Slade, Dingwall, Atkinson, Kelly, Devoto (lol), Hartley, Ojomoh with Farrell/Tuilagi unavailable. So mostly 13s or very inexperienced 12s.

First person to say Steward/Barbeary has to do ruck marks for every single game in the 6 nations.

[Oakboy]

I'd pick 12. Lawrence, 13. Slade, 14. Freeman, 15. Furbank. Continuing, it would be 9. Mitchell, 10. M Smith. Undecided on 11.

As for the forwards LCD at hooker and Itoje in the 2nd row. Beyond that . . . .

I'd find bench slots for F Smith and Fisilau. The gaps are so dependent on fitness availability.

[Which Tyler]

Lawrence & Slade in combination. I don't really care who wears what number.

If & but... I'd rather a specialist, or at least, a generalist with a decent amount of experience at 12, so Ojomoh and Dingwall round out the conversation.

[Danno]

I thought a mischievous Welshman might have started this, to see about poaching whoever the board picks.

[Banquo]

Lawrence & Slade in combination. I don't really care who wears what number.

If & but... I'd rather a specialist, or at least, a generalist with a decent amount of experience at 12, so Ojomoh and Dingwall round out the conversation.

I think Ojomoh is the better athlete, but Dingwall the better player at the moment. I'd play Dingwall and Lawrence 'in isolation', but really I'd look at the whole team selection and likely game planning before deciding on the 12- we don't have a 12 that you'd build a plan around (not that you'd really ever do that).

[Puja]

I want an actual 12. Lawrence is not that and, despite looking like he can do a Tuilagi-bosh from his build, his ball retention is not good enough to use him there (as seen in the Glaws game where he got turned over twice for once again carrying the ball in one hand for no reason).

Dingwall, Atkinson, Kelly, Ojomoh are in variable form/selection for their clubs though. The most regular starter among the young English 12s is Hartley (and he didn't play last week) and he's very very new to adult rugby and doesn't come with a club companion in the centres (which is an advantage for Dingwall and Ojomoh). I need to see who plays and how they play in the next two weekends of European Cup rugby - at the moment I'd lean Dingwall/Freeman, but it's close enough that I am willing to be persuaded by a couple of big games.

Puja

[Tom Moore]

Last line of the OP has ruined my plans-couldn't think of anyone I specifically fancied there, so I was going with a lock so that I could pick 3 proper back rows without anyone saying "... But, but, lineouts".

Back to the drawing board then.

[Which Tyler]

Just having a look at who's starting 12 in the Prem this season (stat.s from all.rugby).

Bath:
Redpath has starting 8 games at IC - He is, of course, Scottish.
Ojomoh has only started 2 games at IC (+10 in a different shirt) - Mostly playing alongside Redpath, and when that happens, they tend to play as numberless centres.

Bristol:
JVR has started 11 matches at IC (+4 in a different shirt) - He is, of course, Saffer.
No real 2nd choice.

Exeter:
Hawkins has 10 starts at IC (+5 in a different shirt) - He is, of course, Welsh.
Devoto has 4 starts at IC (+3 in a different shirt) - He is also >30 now.

Gloucester:
S.Atkinson has 10 starts at IC (+5 in a different shirt) - But he's playing poorly in a poor side.
2nd choice is split between M.Atkinson and Llewellyn - The former is 33 now, the latter is Welsh.

Harlequins:
Esterhuizen has 8 starts at IC (+1 in a different shirt) - He is, of course, Saffer.
2nd choice is split between Anyanwu and Northmore.

Leicester:
Kelly has 9 starts at IC (+6 in a different shirt) - But he's playing... not great, and seems to have been moved out to OC to accommodate Kata (but still 75%+ an IC).
Kata has 6 starts at IC (+3 in a different shirt) - He is, of course, Tongan.

Newcastle:
Orlando has 7 starts at IC (+9 in a different shirt) - He is, of course, Argentine.
2nd choice is split between Hutchison and Holgate - Scottish and Saffer.

Northampton:
Hutchinson has 9 starts at IC (+2 in a different shirt) - He is, of course, Scottish.
Dingwall had 4 starts at IC (+8 in a different shirt)

Sale:
Bedlow has 12 starts at IC (+1 in a different shirt)
Tuilagi has 2 starts at IC - and is injured again.

Saracens:
Thompkins has 9 starts at IC (+2 in a different shirt) - He is, of course, Welsh.
Hartley has 9 starts at IC (+6 in a different shirt) - This is the first season he's played more than 10 matches.


This leaves us the choices of:
Ojomoh - Playing more at 13 this season, but is still mostly a 12, but becoming "numberless"
Devoto - Aged 30 and plagued by injury
S.Atkinson - Suffering second season syndrome
Kelly - Not playing great
Dingwall - Has risen from about 1/4 of his gametime at IC to about 1/3 - I still see him as an OC playing 12, but he's got more time there than a Slade or Lawrence
Bedlow - Is he even Saxons fodder?
Hartley - It is, IMO, too soon for him, needs a chance to not/suffer from second season syndrome.


Ojomoh and Dingwall have the advantage of potential club combinations with an OC. In which case, Ojomoh/Lawrence is ahead of Dingwall/Freeman; on the principal of Lawrence being in possession of an England shirt, and not being a completely novice pairing (yes, I know Freeman has a couple of caps in the back 3).

[Mikey Brown]

I wish this thing still had polls. Well I'll call that Dingers - 2, Lawrence 1.5, Ojomoh - 1, Slade 0.5.

I understand wanting to fit the right 12 in to the team/game-plan, but we don't have a) much of a team b) much of a game plan c) much choice of proven quality options, so that seems kind of moot.

I get not thinking Lawrence is a "proper" 12 too, and that we shouldn't be using him like Tuilagi/Kata/Aki, but that seems as much about our lack of imagination in attack. Lawrence's inability to hold the ball in 2 hands is still going to be a problem at 13. Slade theoretically balances things out quite nicely with his kicking and distribution skills.

Dingwall could bring a bit of defensive stability and glue to the 12 shirt, as well as actually playing there regularly, but that's unproven too. I guess the Italy game would be the best time for it?

[Stom]

Obviously, the answer is Steward.

[Oakboy]

Maybe, the most important factor of all is that it can't be Farrell.

[Puja]

No, the obvious answer is this: http://www.rugbyrebels.co.uk/viewtopic. ... 73#p313573

Unless he's too old now, of course.

Puja


PS. Thanks for volunteering for ruck marks Stom!

[Stom]

No, the obvious answer is this: http://www.rugbyrebels.co.uk/viewtopic. ... 73#p313573

Unless he's too old now, of course.

Puja


PS. Thanks for volunteering for ruck marks Stom!

Considering how fast the board is loading for me, I thought it apt.

[fivepointer]

Dingers all the way at 12.

I'd like to see one of Ojomoh/Atkinson/Kelly in the squad but not sure who i'd go for. Too early for Hartley but at least we've got some options to look to develope.

[Stom]

Dingers all the way at 12.

I'd like to see one of Ojomoh/Atkinson/Kelly in the squad but not sure who i'd go for. Too early for Hartley but at least we've got some options to look to develope.

If everyone is getting a nickname like that, does that make our hooker...

Georgeous?

[Banquo]

I want an actual 12. Lawrence is not that and, despite looking like he can do a Tuilagi-bosh from his build, his ball retention is not good enough to use him there (as seen in the Glaws game where he got turned over twice for once again carrying the ball in one hand for no reason).

Dingwall, Atkinson, Kelly, Ojomoh are in variable form/selection for their clubs though. The most regular starter among the young English 12s is Hartley (and he didn't play last week) and he's very very new to adult rugby and doesn't come with a club companion in the centres (which is an advantage for Dingwall and Ojomoh). I need to see who plays and how they play in the next two weekends of European Cup rugby - at the moment I'd lean Dingwall/Freeman, but it's close enough that I am willing to be persuaded by a couple of big games.

Puja

Dingwall has been in cracking form, and played 12 every time he's started. He's had a bit of flu, so missed 1.5 games.

[Banquo]

Just having a look at who's starting 12 in the Prem this season (stat.s from all.rugby).

Bath:
Redpath has starting 8 games at IC - He is, of course, Scottish.
Ojomoh has only started 2 games at IC (+10 in a different shirt) - Mostly playing alongside Redpath, and when that happens, they tend to play as numberless centres.

Bristol:
JVR has started 11 matches at IC (+4 in a different shirt) - He is, of course, Saffer.
No real 2nd choice.

Exeter:
Hawkins has 10 starts at IC (+5 in a different shirt) - He is, of course, Welsh.
Devoto has 4 starts at IC (+3 in a different shirt) - He is also >30 now.

Gloucester:
S.Atkinson has 10 starts at IC (+5 in a different shirt) - But he's playing poorly in a poor side.
2nd choice is split between M.Atkinson and Llewellyn - The former is 33 now, the latter is Welsh.

Harlequins:
Esterhuizen has 8 starts at IC (+1 in a different shirt) - He is, of course, Saffer.
2nd choice is split between Anyanwu and Northmore.

Leicester:
Kelly has 9 starts at IC (+6 in a different shirt) - But he's playing... not great, and seems to have been moved out to OC to accommodate Kata (but still 75%+ an IC).
Kata has 6 starts at IC (+3 in a different shirt) - He is, of course, Tongan.

Newcastle:
Orlando has 7 starts at IC (+9 in a different shirt) - He is, of course, Argentine.
2nd choice is split between Hutchison and Holgate - Scottish and Saffer.

Northampton:
Hutchinson has 9 starts at IC (+2 in a different shirt) - He is, of course, Scottish.
Dingwall had 4 starts at IC (+8 in a different shirt)

Sale:
Bedlow has 12 starts at IC (+1 in a different shirt)
Tuilagi has 2 starts at IC - and is injured again.

Saracens:
Thompkins has 9 starts at IC (+2 in a different shirt) - He is, of course, Welsh.
Hartley has 9 starts at IC (+6 in a different shirt) - This is the first season he's played more than 10 matches.


This leaves us the choices of:
Ojomoh - Playing more at 13 this season, but is still mostly a 12, but becoming "numberless"
Devoto - Aged 30 and plagued by injury
S.Atkinson - Suffering second season syndrome
Kelly - Not playing great
Dingwall - Has risen from about 1/4 of his gametime at IC to about 1/3 - I still see him as an OC playing 12, but he's got more time there than a Slade or Lawrence
Bedlow - Is he even Saxons fodder?
Hartley - It is, IMO, too soon for him, needs a chance to not/suffer from second season syndrome.


Ojomoh and Dingwall have the advantage of potential club combinations with an OC. In which case, Ojomoh/Lawrence is ahead of Dingwall/Freeman; on the principal of Lawrence being in possession of an England shirt, and not being a completely novice pairing (yes, I know Freeman has a couple of caps in the back 3).

Not sure about those stats. Dingwall has been at inside centre for practical purposes both when Freeman and Hutchinson have played in the games I've watched, which is most. Ojomoh is a terrific athlete, as before, but doesn't imo convince for consistency...but you have no doubt seen far more than me.

[Which Tyler]

Defie "every time he's started" Because this season alone he's started 7 matches at OC (including his most recent start) and 4 at IC.
https://all.rugby/player/fraser-dingwall

[switchskier]

If I'm typing I must be working!

No ifs, no buts. Who are you picking? Six nations starts tomorrow, but it is against Italy after all.

If I'm remembering correctly the options are pretty much down to Lawrence, Slade, Dingwall, Atkinson, Kelly, Devoto (lol), Hartley, Ojomoh with Farrell/Tuilagi unavailable. So mostly 13s or very inexperienced 12s.

First person to say Steward/Barbeary has to do ruck marks for every single game in the 6 nations.

Ben Earls is fit and runs a good crash ball.

[Banquo]

Defie "every time he's started" Because this season alone he's started 7 matches at OC (including his most recent start) and 4 at IC.
https://all.rugby/player/fraser-dingwall

I'm disputing that the shirt number is defining where he actually plays. I have actually watched most of those games. When he plays with Hutchinson, for example, he almost always runs at 12 from 1st phase, yet wears 13- he also often defends at 12 (eg when Freeman was playing, came in off the wing to defend at 13 with Hutchinson to 14 quite often). He's 1st choice centre at Saints and can play equally well in both positions.....and I very rarely say that. That said, a bit biased as I'm mates with his dad

[FKAS]

I think Dingwall deserves to be in the mix. I'm not his biggest fan but he looks to have worked on a lot of his weaknesses. I think Lawrence needs to be in there somewhere, Slade has been in excellent form. Freeman's form and versatility probably sets him up for a wing slot or the 23 shirt with ability to move across.

Hard to pick a backline at the minute. There needs to be some experience in there somewhere but form and fitness seems to be missing for a lot of those you'd want to see remain.

Dingwall/Lawrence or an interchanging Lawrence/Slade at centre. The Saints duo Mitchell and Smith at half back. Steward at 15 with Roebuck and Freeman maybe? Watson or Daly might come into the thinking of they display enough form and take one wing slot just to add some experience whilst the newer caps settle.

[Banquo]

looks to have worked on a lot of his weaknesses.

pray tell....

[Epaminondas Pules]

Difficult to say who, as the options are limited in terms of anyone with any real test time there. As it is Italy up first I would go for Atkinson. Even though Glaws are playing poorly he is just showing the right touches, like Redpath when he came through. I think his rugby brain is better than most. If not, then Dingwall. Both should be in the squad.

Marcus Smith at 10 and either Lawrence or Slade outside. I really like Lawrence. He’s got magic in him, but he’s also really sloppy at times.

But as Mr Banquo said, it’s more whole team selection.


But if I had to pick how it’d be Atkinson. I think his ceiling is potentially very high, game time will only improve that.

[Epaminondas Pules]

looks to have worked on a lot of his weaknesses.

pray tell....

Top line pace and erm…erm…yeah I got nothing.

[Captainhaircut]

Lawrence has to stay at 13 for me, he’s much better running at space than crashing at bodies. Freeman would start on wing but cover 13.

Is a 31 year old Slade who has never truly convinced at 12 the answer? If not him, it’s Kelly or Dingwall. I think both lack a bit of a point of difference but are both very solid across the board and could potentially surprise at international level in the same way Harris and Tompkins have.

Longer team Atkinson and Hartley are there and should be with the Saxons. BJVR qualifies in 2 years….