Cokanasiga to Ospreys
Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 6:31 am
Only the younger brother, but this will not help us grow our own talent.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68734804
.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68734804
.
I think the main young centre talents are coming from the other regions tbh, not sure who he'd be blocking and I imagine they haven't broken the bank on him, they obviously have Watkin and Williams, is TiaanThomas-Wheeler still there?Graigwen wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 6:31 am Only the younger brother, but this will not help us grow our own talent.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68734804
.
Thomas-Wheeler's gone, so I guess Cokanasiga would be blocking Tom Florence (don't know much about him).Numbers wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 9:35 amI think the main young centre talents are coming from the other regions tbh, not sure who he'd be blocking and I imagine they haven't broken the bank on him, they obviously have Watkin and Williams, is TiaanThomas-Wheeler still there?Graigwen wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 6:31 am Only the younger brother, but this will not help us grow our own talent.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68734804
.
I think this is more likely to be true at the moment. Provided we get them back, that's the main thing!Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 10:20 amThomas-Wheeler's gone, so I guess Cokanasiga would be blocking Tom Florence (don't know much about him).Numbers wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 9:35 amI think the main young centre talents are coming from the other regions tbh, not sure who he'd be blocking and I imagine they haven't broken the bank on him, they obviously have Watkin and Williams, is TiaanThomas-Wheeler still there?Graigwen wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 6:31 am Only the younger brother, but this will not help us grow our own talent.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68734804
.
it's always annoying when one of the regions gets an English or Irish player into shape (not so bad if they're Southern Hemisphere). To be fair, England do the same for us.
This.Sandydragon wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 10:43 amI think this is more likely to be true at the moment. Provided we get them back, that's the main thing!Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 10:20 amThomas-Wheeler's gone, so I guess Cokanasiga would be blocking Tom Florence (don't know much about him).
it's always annoying when one of the regions gets an English or Irish player into shape (not so bad if they're Southern Hemisphere). To be fair, England do the same for us.
Totally agree. It's completely unethical.Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 11:25 amThis.Sandydragon wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 10:43 amI think this is more likely to be true at the moment. Provided we get them back, that's the main thing!Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 10:20 am
Thomas-Wheeler's gone, so I guess Cokanasiga would be blocking Tom Florence (don't know much about him).
it's always annoying when one of the regions gets an English or Irish player into shape (not so bad if they're Southern Hemisphere). To be fair, England do the same for us.
The WRU need to stop the English academies from locking our guys in to playing for England's junior teams though. Hopefully they're talking to World Rugby about it.
Sorry, but... who's doing that?Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 11:25 amThe WRU need to stop the English academies from locking our guys in to playing for England's junior teams though. Hopefully they're talking to World Rugby about it.
I copied this from an article in Wales online;Which Tyler wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 11:38 amSorry, but... who's doing that?Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 11:25 amThe WRU need to stop the English academies from locking our guys in to playing for England's junior teams though. Hopefully they're talking to World Rugby about it.
No-one's preventing their academy kids from turning out for a different country's age grade that I've noticed. Age grade has traditionally been about where that player is playing, as it doesn't lock them in to anything (except a few weird nations who insisted that age-grade internationals were senior internationals, and should lock players to a nation for evermore - which was never ethical).
Just take my own club, Bath, for example.
Are you suggesting that Hennesey, Emmanuel or Harrison haven't turned out for Wales? Or Lock (and a couple of others I can't recall right now) for Scotland?
Please note - asking someone who's qualified for England a spot in the England side is not remotely "locking [them] in to playing for England's junior teams" players aren't slaves - they have free choice.
Touche.
It's true that, in order for a player to be considered an EQP (for RFU funding), they have to sign a form saying they won't turn down a call-up to the senior EPS if it comes, but there's absolutely no restrictions on age groups as that doesn't stop them from being English qualified (and, if they do turn down a senior England call, worst that happens is that the club no longer gets funding for them). For example, Reffell got money for Leicester because he was an EQP, up until he was capped for Wales, despite playing for Wales age grade all the way through.pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 12:35 pmI copied this from an article in Wales online;Which Tyler wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 11:38 amSorry, but... who's doing that?Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 11:25 amThe WRU need to stop the English academies from locking our guys in to playing for England's junior teams though. Hopefully they're talking to World Rugby about it.
No-one's preventing their academy kids from turning out for a different country's age grade that I've noticed. Age grade has traditionally been about where that player is playing, as it doesn't lock them in to anything (except a few weird nations who insisted that age-grade internationals were senior internationals, and should lock players to a nation for evermore - which was never ethical).
Just take my own club, Bath, for example.
Are you suggesting that Hennesey, Emmanuel or Harrison haven't turned out for Wales? Or Lock (and a couple of others I can't recall right now) for Scotland?
Please note - asking someone who's qualified for England a spot in the England side is not remotely "locking [them] in to playing for England's junior teams" players aren't slaves - they have free choice.
When dual-qualified players sign a contract with an English club's academy, many have to sign a form which states if they get selected in an English Elite Player squad they have to go with them at age-grade level.
I can't believe the disrespect shown here to the fine journalists at WOL. Thank goodness one of you has faith, and I quote:Puja wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 1:32 pmIt's true that, in order for a player to be considered an EQP (for RFU funding), they have to sign a form saying they won't turn down a call-up to the senior EPS if it comes, but there's absolutely no restrictions on age groups as that doesn't stop them from being English qualified (and, if they do turn down a senior England call, worst that happens is that the club no longer gets funding for them). For example, Reffell got money for Leicester because he was an EQP, up until he was capped for Wales, despite playing for Wales age grade all the way through.pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 12:35 pmI copied this from an article in Wales online;Which Tyler wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 11:38 am
Sorry, but... who's doing that?
No-one's preventing their academy kids from turning out for a different country's age grade that I've noticed. Age grade has traditionally been about where that player is playing, as it doesn't lock them in to anything (except a few weird nations who insisted that age-grade internationals were senior internationals, and should lock players to a nation for evermore - which was never ethical).
Just take my own club, Bath, for example.
Are you suggesting that Hennesey, Emmanuel or Harrison haven't turned out for Wales? Or Lock (and a couple of others I can't recall right now) for Scotland?
Please note - asking someone who's qualified for England a spot in the England side is not remotely "locking [them] in to playing for England's junior teams" players aren't slaves - they have free choice.
When dual-qualified players sign a contract with an English club's academy, many have to sign a form which states if they get selected in an English Elite Player squad they have to go with them at age-grade level.
I think that's someone at WOL getting confused and conflating the senior and age-grade situations together.
Puja
(I've carefully stripped them of context to allow the true meaning to shine through.)
I was conceding defeat... honestSon of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 3:30 pm(I've carefully stripped them of context to allow the true meaning to shine through.)
They have journalists? I'd kinda assumed it was AI with a "maximum clickbait" algorithm attached.Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 3:30 pm I can't believe the disrespect shown here to the fine journalists at WOL.
This isnt exactly new. From 2017:Puja wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 1:32 pmIt's true that, in order for a player to be considered an EQP (for RFU funding), they have to sign a form saying they won't turn down a call-up to the senior EPS if it comes, but there's absolutely no restrictions on age groups as that doesn't stop them from being English qualified (and, if they do turn down a senior England call, worst that happens is that the club no longer gets funding for them). For example, Reffell got money for Leicester because he was an EQP, up until he was capped for Wales, despite playing for Wales age grade all the way through.pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 12:35 pmI copied this from an article in Wales online;Which Tyler wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 11:38 am
Sorry, but... who's doing that?
No-one's preventing their academy kids from turning out for a different country's age grade that I've noticed. Age grade has traditionally been about where that player is playing, as it doesn't lock them in to anything (except a few weird nations who insisted that age-grade internationals were senior internationals, and should lock players to a nation for evermore - which was never ethical).
Just take my own club, Bath, for example.
Are you suggesting that Hennesey, Emmanuel or Harrison haven't turned out for Wales? Or Lock (and a couple of others I can't recall right now) for Scotland?
Please note - asking someone who's qualified for England a spot in the England side is not remotely "locking [them] in to playing for England's junior teams" players aren't slaves - they have free choice.
When dual-qualified players sign a contract with an English club's academy, many have to sign a form which states if they get selected in an English Elite Player squad they have to go with them at age-grade level.
I think that's someone at WOL getting confused and conflating the senior and age-grade situations together.
Puja
And, as can be seen by dual-qualified players like Rees-Zammit, Reffell, Costelow, Griffin, Tshiunza, Jenkins all playing for Wales age grade and then onto Wales, while being contracted by English clubs, it's hardly placing players in shackles and forcing them into a white shirt at knifepoint. The other argument can be made (and has, on the EMB) that it's a bit annoying that we're allowing our educational scholarships and academy places go towards training and developing players that they go on to play for Wales, rather than focussing on English talent, plus that the RFU is spending money to reward clubs for picking EQP, that then end up turning out for Wales (Rowlands, Tompkins, Lloyd, Francis, etc).Sandydragon wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 4:51 pmThis isnt exactly new. From 2017:Puja wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 1:32 pmIt's true that, in order for a player to be considered an EQP (for RFU funding), they have to sign a form saying they won't turn down a call-up to the senior EPS if it comes, but there's absolutely no restrictions on age groups as that doesn't stop them from being English qualified (and, if they do turn down a senior England call, worst that happens is that the club no longer gets funding for them). For example, Reffell got money for Leicester because he was an EQP, up until he was capped for Wales, despite playing for Wales age grade all the way through.pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 12:35 pm
I copied this from an article in Wales online;
When dual-qualified players sign a contract with an English club's academy, many have to sign a form which states if they get selected in an English Elite Player squad they have to go with them at age-grade level.
I think that's someone at WOL getting confused and conflating the senior and age-grade situations together.
Puja
https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/s ... ege-675696
Come and have an educational scholarship with us and then get picked by a top clubs academy and sign an agreement to prioritise the English senior squad. All very influential on young players.
How many of your U18 and U21 teams were born in Wales? Should they not be playing for Wales, since they were born there? Im very happy that its low numbers, but ideally it should be none. Youre exploiting the economic power imbalance with children and that leaves a very sour taste.Puja wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 5:20 pmAnd, as can be seen by dual-qualified players like Rees-Zammit, Reffell, Costelow, Griffin, Tshiunza, Jenkins all playing for Wales age grade and then onto Wales, while being contracted by English clubs, it's hardly placing players in shackles and forcing them into a white shirt at knifepoint. The other argument can be made (and has, on the EMB) that it's a bit annoying that we're allowing our educational scholarships and academy places go towards training and developing players that they go on to play for Wales, rather than focussing on English talent, plus that the RFU is spending money to reward clubs for picking EQP, that then end up turning out for Wales (Rowlands, Tompkins, Lloyd, Francis, etc).Sandydragon wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 4:51 pmThis isnt exactly new. From 2017:Puja wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 1:32 pm
It's true that, in order for a player to be considered an EQP (for RFU funding), they have to sign a form saying they won't turn down a call-up to the senior EPS if it comes, but there's absolutely no restrictions on age groups as that doesn't stop them from being English qualified (and, if they do turn down a senior England call, worst that happens is that the club no longer gets funding for them). For example, Reffell got money for Leicester because he was an EQP, up until he was capped for Wales, despite playing for Wales age grade all the way through.
I think that's someone at WOL getting confused and conflating the senior and age-grade situations together.
Puja
https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/s ... ege-675696
Come and have an educational scholarship with us and then get picked by a top clubs academy and sign an agreement to prioritise the English senior squad. All very influential on young players.
Which players have you actually lost that have gone to an English school/academy and were corrupted into Englishness? The only one I can think of in recent times is Feyi-Waboso - every other recent example is of Wales outsourcing your player development to the English system and then getting the players back again.
Puja
I don't know. How many?Sandydragon wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 7:00 pmHow many of your U18 and U21 teams were born in Wales?Puja wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 5:20 pmAnd, as can be seen by dual-qualified players like Rees-Zammit, Reffell, Costelow, Griffin, Tshiunza, Jenkins all playing for Wales age grade and then onto Wales, while being contracted by English clubs, it's hardly placing players in shackles and forcing them into a white shirt at knifepoint. The other argument can be made (and has, on the EMB) that it's a bit annoying that we're allowing our educational scholarships and academy places go towards training and developing players that they go on to play for Wales, rather than focussing on English talent, plus that the RFU is spending money to reward clubs for picking EQP, that then end up turning out for Wales (Rowlands, Tompkins, Lloyd, Francis, etc).Sandydragon wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 4:51 pm
This isnt exactly new. From 2017:
https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/s ... ege-675696
Come and have an educational scholarship with us and then get picked by a top clubs academy and sign an agreement to prioritise the English senior squad. All very influential on young players.
Which players have you actually lost that have gone to an English school/academy and were corrupted into Englishness? The only one I can think of in recent times is Feyi-Waboso - every other recent example is of Wales outsourcing your player development to the English system and then getting the players back again.
Puja
That, and why is birth the important bit? Why not located at age 10? or 15? or any other age?
I got bored and researched the England U18 matchday squad that was just named to play Georgia. It's hard to find birthplaces for 18 year olds without getting very stalky, but a quick google suggests that there are exactly zero Welsh players in that side who have been inveigled into playing for England.Which Tyler wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 7:37 pmThat, and why is birth the important bit? Why not located at age 10? or 15? or any other age?
Generally, age grade rugby is about where you're being developed at that age. Which is why it's generally based on where you are at that age, and committing people to a decision made aged 18 shouldn't be a decision for life.
We can say that 100% of England's age grade squads live in England, go to school in England, and are in the English academy system.
Unlike the Welsh or Scottish squads.
Which is why signing agreements to represent England, even if it is just a con to get money from the RFU is wrong.Which Tyler wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 7:37 pmThat, and why is birth the important bit? Why not located at age 10? or 15? or any other age?
Generally, age grade rugby is about where you're being developed at that age. Which is why it's generally based on where you are at that age, and committing people to a decision made aged 18 shouldn't be a decision for life.
We can say that 100% of England's age grade squads live in England, go to school in England, and are in the English academy system.
Unlike the Welsh or Scottish squads.
Yet the English got very upset at Wales poaching adult players who are in a far better position to make a decision on their future. Just a tad hypocritical.Puja wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 7:52 pmI got bored and researched the England U18 matchday squad that was just named to play Georgia. It's hard to find birthplaces for 18 year olds without getting very stalky, but a quick google suggests that there are exactly zero Welsh players in that side who have been inveigled into playing for England.Which Tyler wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 7:37 pmThat, and why is birth the important bit? Why not located at age 10? or 15? or any other age?
Generally, age grade rugby is about where you're being developed at that age. Which is why it's generally based on where you are at that age, and committing people to a decision made aged 18 shouldn't be a decision for life.
We can say that 100% of England's age grade squads live in England, go to school in England, and are in the English academy system.
Unlike the Welsh or Scottish squads.
Perhaps it is a problem that doesn't actually exist and we're not actually "exploiting the power imbalance with children"? Who can tell.
Puja
Why? Why should the RFU pay money for EQP to a player who doesn't want to play for England? They don't *have* to sign it and, if they do, they don't *have* to stand by it - Rees-Zammit didn't.Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 2:24 pmWhich is why signing agreements to represent England, even if it is just a con to get money from the RFU is wrong.Which Tyler wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 7:37 pmThat, and why is birth the important bit? Why not located at age 10? or 15? or any other age?
Generally, age grade rugby is about where you're being developed at that age. Which is why it's generally based on where you are at that age, and committing people to a decision made aged 18 shouldn't be a decision for life.
We can say that 100% of England's age grade squads live in England, go to school in England, and are in the English academy system.
Unlike the Welsh or Scottish squads.
And that’s a false metic if ever there was one
Who are these "dozens of young Welsh players" who have been convinced to abandon Wales? Can you name three just for a start?Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 2:37 pm This may be a bigger problem for the future when those dozens of young welsh players poached to England start to show promise and get snapped up into the English senior teams. We can see what happened with south sea islanders going to New Zealand to get an idea of the damage that causes.
Didnt Gareth Edwards and JPR Williams benefit by going to Millfield School without being forced to play for England?Puja wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 6:11 pmWhy? Why should the RFU pay money for EQP to a player who doesn't want to play for England? They don't *have* to sign it and, if they do, they don't *have* to stand by it - Rees-Zammit didn't.Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 2:24 pmWhich is why signing agreements to represent England, even if it is just a con to get money from the RFU is wrong.Which Tyler wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 7:37 pm
That, and why is birth the important bit? Why not located at age 10? or 15? or any other age?
Generally, age grade rugby is about where you're being developed at that age. Which is why it's generally based on where you are at that age, and committing people to a decision made aged 18 shouldn't be a decision for life.
We can say that 100% of England's age grade squads live in England, go to school in England, and are in the English academy system.
Unlike the Welsh or Scottish squads.
And that’s a false metic if ever there was one
Who are these "dozens of young Welsh players" who have been convinced to abandon Wales? Can you name three just for a start?Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 2:37 pm This may be a bigger problem for the future when those dozens of young welsh players poached to England start to show promise and get snapped up into the English senior teams. We can see what happened with south sea islanders going to New Zealand to get an idea of the damage that causes.
At the moment, I'm seeing moral outrage about a problem that doesn't seem to exist.
Puja