RugbyRebels

Seems to be the zeitgeist at the moment. I'm not an expert, but I would have concerns about playing fast and loose with my child's psychological development.

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/articl ... bJfisPgD7Z

Recently, my boy has been dressing up as a fairy at daycare. Mind you, he told me that "real fairies are all girls" so that's fine. He also dresses up as an All Black, Spider-Man and a "ghost". (For some reason, dressing up as a ghost involves wearing socks on your hands and a beanie - I can't figure out what he thinks a ghost actually is. All he says is that they live in the corner of the world.)

Little kids do some weird shit. They'll have plenty of time to be told what to be and how to think in the future so I'm pretty relaxed about this sort of thing.

He's not playing soccer though. That's a non-negotiable.

I bought my daughter a batman outfit as she kept on pointing at it in the shop

Zhivago wrote:Seems to be the zeitgeist at the moment. I'm not an expert, but I would have concerns about playing fast and loose with my child's psychological development.

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/articl ... bJfisPgD7Z

Then don't become a parent.

Lizard wrote:Recently, my boy has been dressing up as a fairy at daycare. Mind you, he told me that "real fairies are all girls" so that's fine. He also dresses up as an All Black, Spider-Man and a "ghost". (For some reason, dressing up as a ghost involves wearing socks on your hands and a beanie - I can't figure out what he thinks a ghost actually is. All he says is that they live in the corner of the world.)

Little kids do some weird shit. They'll have plenty of time to be told what to be and how to think in the future so I'm pretty relaxed about this sort of thing.

He's not playing soccer though. That's a non-negotiable.

This.

Children will figure out "who" they are on their own, regardless of having parents that push them in either direction (in my own opinion). A great colorful imagination is important for their development. Supporting them in this exploration and allowing them to figure it out helps them become happy, confident and psychologically well adjusted adults.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Lizard wrote:Recently, my boy has been dressing up as a fairy at daycare. Mind you, he told me that "real fairies are all girls" so that's fine. He also dresses up as an All Black, Spider-Man and a "ghost". (For some reason, dressing up as a ghost involves wearing socks on your hands and a beanie - I can't figure out what he thinks a ghost actually is. All he says is that they live in the corner of the world.)

Little kids do some weird shit. They'll have plenty of time to be told what to be and how to think in the future so I'm pretty relaxed about this sort of thing.

He's not playing soccer though. That's a non-negotiable.

This.

Yep. My eldest loves his sport, getting as muddy as possible and wrestling with his mates and brother. He also has pink and purple as his favourite colours and therefore has a purple bike. He also had a wall in his bedroom painted purple, when the decorator stated in front of my son that only girls liked purple I asked him why. His reply of monosyllabic noises and a shrug of the shoulders perfectly summed up the statement. Having says that, I could do without the stares in the park as my son flies by on his bright purple bike but he's happy so who gives a ****.

More importantly Haylee is fit.

Trying to find genre neutral baby clothes is a challenge all of its own. The overwhelming majority are obviously for boys or girls, aside from some new baby stuff.

I read shed loads of stuff before my son was born and then after a week of confusing myself with contradictory advice, my wife and I just decided to ignore the experts and get on with it.

Sandydragon wrote:Trying to find genre neutral baby clothes is a challenge all of its own. The overwhelming majority are obviously for boys or girls, aside from some new baby stuff.

I read shed loads of stuff before my son was born and then after a week of confusing myself with contradictory advice, my wife and I just decided to ignore the experts and get on with it.

As a father of a son it isn't so bad, but who the f decided that dinosaurs and robots were a boy thing? The separation of even baby clothes into boys and girls and the tyranny of pink for girls is just an outrage. First piece of clothing I bought for myself when my son was born was a pink shirt.

Like it's an actual thing FFS.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Trying to find genre neutral baby clothes is a challenge all of its own. The overwhelming majority are obviously for boys or girls, aside from some new baby stuff.

I read shed loads of stuff before my son was born and then after a week of confusing myself with contradictory advice, my wife and I just decided to ignore the experts and get on with it.

As a father of a son it isn't so bad, but who the f decided that dinosaurs and robots were a boy thing? The separation of even baby clothes into boys and girls and the tyranny of pink for girls is just an outrage. First piece of clothing I bought for myself when my son was born was a pink shirt.

I bought a storm trooper outfit before he was born (when we didn't know whether he was going to be a boy or girl). My wife got upset when I tried to buy the Darth Vader outfit.

The problem with all this gender neutral stuff is that you can do this whilst they are tiny. But once they get to nursery and all their mates are dressed in pink or blue, be prepared for one very unhappy child who won't understand the social experiment that is being tested on him or her. My niece has just turned 13, and for years everything had to be pink. All her friends had pink stuff, it didn't matter what you bought her for Christmas or birthdays, provided it was pink. I agree it seems more OTT for girls.

In Romania (and often, but not so much here in Hungary), girls have their ears pierced when babies. So whenever we're in Romania, they always call my daughter a boy. She wears whatever she chooses to wear. One day it's a pink tutu, the next it's a pair of "boyish" dungarees.

Boy is on his way in the next few weeks, and we'll see how he grows. Most of our baby clothes are pretty neutral (lots of whites, browns, greens and blues - more natural colours), except the ones bought by my family in the UK. So it'll be interesting to see the difference with a boy.

Stom wrote:In Romania (and often, but not so much here in Hungary), girls have their ears pierced when babies. So whenever we're in Romania, they always call my daughter a boy. She wears whatever she chooses to wear. One day it's a pink tutu, the next it's a pair of "boyish" dungarees.

Boy is on his way in the next few weeks, and we'll see how he grows. Most of our baby clothes are pretty neutral (lots of whites, browns, greens and blues - more natural colours), except the ones bought by my family in the UK. So it'll be interesting to see the difference with a boy.

My brother-in-law's in-laws spend a lot of time in Spain and they bought us some baby clothes. Apparently there was literally just blue or pink, neutral was a real problem. I don't think that vast swathes of Spanish children are being mentally disrupted by being dressed in pink or blue at an early age. I'd also argue that most parents have bigger things to worry about.

[BBvideo=560,315][/BBvideo]

Sandydragon wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:Trying to find genre neutral baby clothes is a challenge all of its own. The overwhelming majority are obviously for boys or girls, aside from some new baby stuff.

I read shed loads of stuff before my son was born and then after a week of confusing myself with contradictory advice, my wife and I just decided to ignore the experts and get on with it.

As a father of a son it isn't so bad, but who the f decided that dinosaurs and robots were a boy thing? The separation of even baby clothes into boys and girls and the tyranny of pink for girls is just an outrage. First piece of clothing I bought for myself when my son was born was a pink shirt.

I bought a storm trooper outfit before he was born (when we didn't know whether he was going to be a boy or girl). My wife got upset when I tried to buy the Darth Vader outfit.

The problem with all this gender neutral stuff is that you can do this whilst they are tiny. But once they get to nursery and all their mates are dressed in pink or blue, be prepared for one very unhappy child who won't understand the social experiment that is being tested on him or her. My niece has just turned 13, and for years everything had to be pink. All her friends had pink stuff, it didn't matter what you bought her for Christmas or birthdays, provided it was pink. I agree it seems more OTT for girls.

If the worst bit of peer pressure the wee man succumbs to is a desire to wear blue then grand. Don't mind what he chooses to wear but whilst it's my choice I'd like more than blue.

I don't get the focus on this topic. Kids are just kids, I have a set of twins, boy and a girl. When we go to a toy store, he wants toy cars, she wants dolls, they play together with both. But we've never pushed either of them one way or another. She likes wearing dresses and he wants to wear shorts and t-shirts. When they play with the two neighbors girls he sometimes comes back with make up, other times all four of them are covered in mud and scratches from roughing it up outside.

They're six now, so no doubt more influenced by the environment outside of family, but unless you're a dinosaur, I think most parents today will just let there kids be kids, especially at the start.

In summary, gender neutral parenting, pffffffffftttttt, whatever.

J Dory wrote:I don't get the focus on this topic. Kids are just kids, I have a set of twins, boy and a girl. When we go to a toy store, he wants toy cars, she wants dolls, they play together with both. But we've never pushed either of them one way or another. She likes wearing dresses and he wants to wear shorts and t-shirts. When they play with the two neighbors girls he sometimes comes back with make up, other times all four of them are covered in mud and scratches from roughing it up outside.

They're six now, so no doubt more influenced by the environment outside of family, but unless you're a dinosaur, I think most parents today will just let there kids be kids, especially at the start.

In summary, gender neutral parenting, pffffffffftttttt, whatever.

You don't get the focus because you assume it. Plenty of people don't as has been set out above.

A lot of useful comments here. I would like to clarify my thoughts on this topic. I am not suggesting banning my child from activites contrary to their gender as defined by society, but rather that creating (by accident or on purpose) an environment which causes my child to head down a developmental path that puts them in contradiction to society's gender assumptions risks psychological pain inflicted by society, and risks other pyschological maldevelopment that might depend on an identity that disguinshes them from the other sex.

It could be that I misunderstand the nature of gender neutrality, but it seems to me to seek to destroy the social construction of gender.

Zhivago wrote:A lot of useful comments here. I would like to clarify my thoughts on this topic. I am not suggesting banning my child from activites contrary to their gender as defined by society, but rather that creating (by accident or on purpose) an environment which causes my child to head down a developmental path that puts them in contradiction to society's gender assumptions risks psychological pain inflicted by society, and risks other pyschological maldevelopment that might depend on an identity that disguinshes them from the other sex.

It could be that I misunderstand the nature of gender neutrality, but it seems to me to seek to destroy the social construction of gender.

Replace the words "gender" and "sex" in this post with the word "race" and you might understand by analogy what the point is.

I take it the same way I take all these other popular ideas. My kids will be bought up in a way whereby they can see everyone as equal, including themselves. I will praise them in gender unspecific ways: so my daughter doesn't just get called beautiful or smart, but funny and strong, as an example.

I will allow them to make what choices are available to them. But I will present them with those choices. I wouldn't offer my daughter just boyish clothes. I offer her a choice of shorts, trousers, skirts, dresses, and everything else.

Many of the stories (although not the one in the OP) I see say that their kid (usually a boy) wants to wear dresses and skirts, but I always think: is that just because that's all you provided him with?

Anyway, I don't believe in gender equivalence, I believe we should praise the differences between man and woman, so I'm not liberal enough...which is bullcrap.

Today my girl (18 months) is wearing a pink onesie, pink legging things, and a pink dress. My boy (3 1/2) is wearing black rugby shorts, an All Blacks "replica" shirt over a black long-sleeved T and, I believe, Thomas The Tank Engine socks (presumably in honour of Mr Waldrom).

They each chose their own clothes this morning (actually the boy picked his out last night).

It did take my girl a bit of dithering to choose between denim dungarees and her pink frock though.

Today my girl (18 months) is wearing a pink onesie, pink legging things, and a pink dress. My boy (3 1/2) is wearing black rugby shorts, an All Blacks "replica" shirt over a black long-sleeved T and, I believe, Thomas The Tank Engine socks (presumably in honour of Mr Waldrom).

They each chose their own clothes this morning (actually the boy picked his out last night).

It did take my girl a bit of dithering to choose between denim dungarees and her pink frock though.

Stom wrote:I take it the same way I take all these other popular ideas. My kids will be bought up in a way whereby they can see everyone as equal, including themselves. I will praise them in gender unspecific ways: so my daughter doesn't just get called beautiful or smart, but funny and strong, as an example.

I will allow them to make what choices are available to them. But I will present them with those choices. I wouldn't offer my daughter just boyish clothes. I offer her a choice of shorts, trousers, skirts, dresses, and everything else.

Many of the stories (although not the one in the OP) I see say that their kid (usually a boy) wants to wear dresses and skirts, but I always think: is that just because that's all you provided him with?

Anyway, I don't believe in gender equivalence, I believe we should praise the differences between man and woman, so I'm not liberal enough...which is bullcrap.

The differences aren't between men and women as such though. They are between what was traditionally viewed masculine and what was traditionally viewed feminine. Once you accept that there plenty of men with "feminine" traits and women with "masculine" traits then the idea of assuming behaviour based on sex becomes ridiculous.

There are people who undoubtedly say "My little boy just wants to play with trucks" because that's either all they've offered or that is the way in which they've led the playing - there are studies on this.

It all sounds very new age.

morepork wrote:It all sounds very new age.

Not really. Up until WW1 or so pink was a very manly colour whih you would dress your sons in. The "dress" is what all youths would wear. A wander around the National Gallery or NPG soon disabuses one of the notion of fixed masculine or feminine modes of dress.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

morepork wrote:It all sounds very new age.

Not really. Up until WW1 or so pink was a very manly colour whih you would dress your sons in. The "dress" is what all youths would wear. A wander around the National Gallery or NPG soon disabuses one of the notion of fixed masculine or feminine modes of dress.

Society is capricious indeed.