I find myself unusually anxious before an England game. My head tells me to stop being silly, England are of course doomed and all one can hope for is signs of continued progress. But then part of me thinks that the All Blacks ain't all that - England still have the bragging rights (back four years or so and a jammy draw keeping it alive). But then I watched squidge's video on Robertson and I become depressed again. Gah.
How are other's feeling?
Re: NZ v England round 1
Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2024 10:44 pm
by Danno
Could (should) be fascinating. Both sides are largely unknown quantities to the other, getting into a major rebuild project with some really exciting elements (Razor, our defensive system marrying to a newish desire to attack, loads of new faces all around) and some less exciting bits like captain (!!) Scott Barrett, their second row in general, a lot of our front row and a vague and probably misguided fear that we will revert to playing not to lose
Re: NZ v England round 1
Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2024 10:46 pm
by Danno
Worst bit is going to be the early mornings trying to find a way not to pay fifteen quid to watch it.
Re: NZ v England round 1
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 4:39 am
by Which Tyler
Saturday 6th July; 8:05am Ref: Referee: Nika Amashukeli TJs: Nic Berry, Jordan Way TMO: Eric Gauzins
England:
1. Marler
2. George (c)
3. Stuart
4. Itoje
5. Martin
6. Cunningham-South
7. Underhill
8. Earl
Yep, thats the team. Thought Marler would start but surprised Baxter is in the 23 along with Sleightholme.
Fascinating game in prospect.
Re: NZ v England round 1
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 7:42 am
by Oakboy
Spencer at 21 seems sensible. I'd have started Dan at hooker. What did Roebuck do to get dropped?
Re: NZ v England round 1
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 7:48 am
by Mikey Brown
Yeah some interesting calls there. I probably like that 23 more than last weeks, but didn’t think much (if anything) would change.
I thought Roebuck and Randall would have held on to their spots at least. Will be very interesting to see when Baxter is introduced.
Re: NZ v England round 1
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 8:17 am
by Puja
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 7:48 am
Yeah some interesting calls there. I probably like that 23 more than last weeks, but didn’t think much (if anything) would change.
I thought Roebuck and Randall would have held on to their spots at least. Will be very interesting to see when Baxter is introduced.
Lots more changes than I expected - I had assumed Coles for Ewels and the other 22 being kept. As you say, a touch harsh on Roebuck and Randall, and a hell of a big call to debut Baxter and Sleightholme away in NZ.
It's an exciting side though and hopefully those changes have been chomping at the bit in training. Sleightholme especially could be a hell of a weapon off the bench.
Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 7:42 amI'd have started Dan at hooker. What did Roebuck do to get dropped?
From doing the m-b-m, George is still in a different class to Dan - his nous and game knowledge get him in the right place so many times to provide the glue for this England team and Dan's lineout throwing isn't trusted like George's is.
On Roebuck, the rumours from the camp were that they were hugely excited about Sleightholme, but he needed longer in camp to get used to the defensive patterns, which he has now had, so it's probably quality overtaking quality, rather than anything that big Tommy R did badly.
Puja
Re: NZ v England round 1
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 8:17 am
by Epaminondas Pules
Decent side that. Odd to see Roebuck miss out, but a chance for Sleightholme to get a cap. Baxter is an interesting choice though Rodd did struggle, or seemed to against Japan. And a brilliant experience for him to earn his first cap in NZ.
Re: NZ v England round 1
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 8:20 am
by Puja
Also, a note to say how pleased I am to have Amashukeli reffing this game. I regard him as the best ref in the world currently and it's going to be great having quality in charge.
Puja
Re: NZ v England round 1
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:39 am
by FKAS
Yeah good to see a quality ref get the gig.
Interesting that Borthwick has mixed it up a bit. I know some thought Rodd struggled Vs Japan but I thought he was largely fine maybe trying a bit to hard. Pairing Baxter with Cole makes sense though it does lack mobility off the bench. Looking forward to it.
Anyone know when Robertson is naming his side?
Re: NZ v England round 1
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:44 am
by Which Tyler
FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:39 amAnyone know when Robertson is naming his side?
Thursday
Re: NZ v England round 1
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:56 am
by Puja
Chris Rattue providing quality journalism with a winners and losers of the week list in the NZ Herald:
LOSER: The over-optimistic Marcus Smith fan club (and I’ll throw in Damian McKenzie with that)
The sparky England No 10 is overrated (famous last words).
England talk up No 10s with a bit of flair, no matter their real ability or lack of. Previously, Danny Cipriani got extraordinary coverage for a bloke who played just a handful of tests over a decade.
Smith stands out because he goes against type compared with the players around him. The All Blacks will target Smith for sure, and he will wilt.
Smith isn’t the only overrated player. Damian McKenzie gets a free ride in this country despite his lack of test guile. He’s a little man with a big smile and pep, which has taken him a long way.
Image is a funny thing. Another mercurial talent, Carlos Spencer, was a way better player but copped a lot of flak that McKenzie seems to avoid.
Despite his small-town origins, playing for Auckland and the city-based Blues probably didn’t help the magical Spencer, who played with an arrogance that irked the provinces.
Now is the time for McKenzie to prove he is a ruthless match controller, if he gets the No 10 nod.
Puja
Re: NZ v England round 1
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 10:15 am
by Mikey Brown
What an odd take. I'd forgotten about that Rattue guy. Why announce losers before the game is played, but they've managed to at least get selected?
I really don't think I've seen praise of Smith at international level that goes much beyond 'can be a game-breaker, but yet to consistently take charge of a test match.'
McKenzie, as far as I can tell, has been hopping back and forth from 10/15 for years now and is only now really getting a run as a full-time 10 for his club. He's started 3 games for NZ at 10 in the last 3 seasons.
Re: NZ v England round 1
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 10:16 am
by Mikey Brown
There's nothing super in-depth here but Wigglesworth appeared on the NZ rugby talk show thing for a few minutes if anyone is interested.
Re: NZ v England round 1
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 11:26 am
by Banquo
3 Cambridge M and Y Graduates in there . The starting school, if you like
Re: NZ v England round 1
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 12:40 pm
by loudnconfident
Puja wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:56 am
Chris Rattue providing quality journalism with a winners and losers of the week list in the NZ Herald:
"The All Blacks will target Smith for sure,"
This is quality journalism: well worth the Herald subscription.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 7:48 am
Yeah some interesting calls there. I probably like that 23 more than last weeks, but didn’t think much (if anything) would change.
I thought Roebuck and Randall would have held on to their spots at least. Will be very interesting to see when Baxter is introduced.
Lots more changes than I expected - I had assumed Coles for Ewels and the other 22 being kept. As you say, a touch harsh on Roebuck and Randall, and a hell of a big call to debut Baxter and Sleightholme away in NZ.
It's an exciting side though and hopefully those changes have been chomping at the bit in training. Sleightholme especially could be a hell of a weapon off the bench.
Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 7:42 amI'd have started Dan at hooker. What did Roebuck do to get dropped?
From doing the m-b-m, George is still in a different class to Dan - his nous and game knowledge get him in the right place so many times to provide the glue for this England team and Dan's lineout throwing isn't trusted like George's is.
On Roebuck, the rumours from the camp were that they were hugely excited about Sleightholme, but he needed longer in camp to get used to the defensive patterns, which he has now had, so it's probably quality overtaking quality, rather than anything that big Tommy R did badly.
Puja
The bold bit is a really interesting point and something stats absolutely risk overlooking.
The "not f*cking it up" skill is typically not shown by stats. Whereas being on the receiving end of someone else's f*ck up does leave you with a missed tackle, or 2-on-1 etc.
Someone like George, just getting back up quickly and being in the line, in the right place on the next phase or whatever is "part of the plan" is so valuable. It means someone else isn't having to cover a hole, and we're not pulling someone else in stand in who then has a knock-on effect, either later in that phase or in the next phase.
But that only appears from watching carefully, probably after the event - like your MBMs. The stats instead show which poor sod had a 5m gap to cover and, surprisingly to no-one, didn't manage to make the tackle.
Re: NZ v England round 1
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 7:16 pm
by Oakboy
At what point does safety-first give way to hurting the opposition? George does not do that any more. Yes, tidying up is a useful asset in a young, developing team but that's more about not losing than grabbing a game by the scruff of the neck. Maybe, George is necessary till a new genaration of props is in place. If he loses any more pace though . . .
Re: NZ v England round 1
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 7:29 pm
by pjm1
I'd hope (but not guarantee) that is something the coaches are weighing up. If his top 2 inches consistently get him to the right place, so that the other side move the ball elsewhere, that's a win on defence. If he's slipping off tackles or not getting there more often, then that's a loss in defence. We have to add what he brings/detracts from in attack, but maybe he's still net positive?
As you say, we have other, pressing issues in our front row. Maybe he's just not the biggest problem to deal with right now?
Re: NZ v England round 1
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 7:41 pm
by Mikey Brown
And where do you draw the line with what counts as attack? I don’t know that I’d call throwing in the lineout ‘attacking play’ but obviously it’s key others getting the opportunity.
Not having Genge or Sinkler really does throw off the balance of carrying skill in the front row though.
Re: NZ v England round 1
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2024 8:16 pm
by Danno
Come on Oakboy, it feels like George is becoming a bit of a hobby horse when he's doing nothing wrong and, as highlighted, is doing a hell of a lot right. Dan still has his bloopers to iron out and for good or ill we haven't taken Langdon, Blamire or Moore on tour.
. The starting school, if you like