Energy

[Sandydragon]

We have a problem in this country. We are about to run out of power in the not too distant future. With the Hinkley Point project now at severe risk due to a government postponement and French unions now refusing to support it, not to mention a somewhat miffed Chinese government, the question must be what are the actual alternatives.

Earlier this week, the government raised the prospect of families being paid directly by Fracking companies if they were in the vicinity of such operations. Direct bribe (a bit like Alaska from what I understand), or a sensible means to ensure that local people benefit from the profits of such operations? Equally, is fracking the answer? Could we not instead look at smaller nuclear power stations which are cheaper to build, albeit we would need more of them. Could renewables provide a realistic answer?

[Stooo]

It's impossible to "run out of power".

The law of Conservation of energy.

[bruce]

Tidal will help supplement the other renewables, but I don't believe will make up the shortfall and it is probably more expensive than the Nuclear option.

The Swansea tidal lagoon (undergoing delays - Brexcuse), with potentially a few more around the welsh coastline. Could we see the Severn Tidal Barrage resurfacing as an option, or will the lagoons scupper that?

[Sandydragon]

Tidal will help supplement the other renewables, but I don't believe will make up the shortfall and it is probably more expensive than the Nuclear option.

The Swansea tidal lagoon (undergoing delays - Brexcuse), with potentially a few more around the welsh coastline. Could we see the Severn Tidal Barrage resurfacing as an option, or will the lagoons scupper that?

The tidal barrage has been discussed for years, yet remains a bit pie in the sky. I think the last proposal got thrown out a few years ago.

I don't think reducing consumption will be the complete answer. I have no issue in us trying to reduce the demand, but its not a good advertisement for a place to do business in if the lights go out every night.

[BBD]

I know that Siemens have made several massive, investments in wind farm technology production around the UK and the creation of windfarms around the UK coast. post Brexit the existing contracts will continue unaffected and they will wait and see how the UK/EU relationship pans out before committing further

[cashead]

Is geothermal an option?

[BBD]

although the uk isn't volcanic, the potential for geothermal energy does exist, but it's largely theoretical, the last time it was seriously considered was the energy crisis of 1973, so the technology isn't at an advanced stage compared to wind farms

[Sandydragon]

It would be useful to get some objectivity on fracking. There's so much hype surrounding it that sensible voices seem to be drowned out in the noise. Personally, I don't have a problem with nuclear, I just think that the Hinkley option was too costly and a huge risk.

[BBD]

I worked (at arms length lol) with Sellafield last year, it was interesting to see how safety conscious they were, almost to the point of frustrating paralysis, but when you hear how devastating the outcome of a worse case scenario would be, it was totally understandable. that said they are going through massive upheaval as they change their business model towards reprocessing

[Sandydragon]

I worked (at arms length lol) with Sellafield last year, it was interesting to see how safety conscious they were, almost to the point of frustrating paralysis, but when you hear how devastating the outcome of a worse case scenario would be, it was totally understandable. that said they are going through massive upheaval as they change their business model towards reprocessing

I've done a fair bit of work recently with the civil nuclear sector. You are totally right, safety is taken very seriously; their risk appetite is most certainly adverse in many areas.

[BBD]

I was astonished at the behaviour of some with an exercise we did where the opportunity for gain was shunned in order to deliver the job,but entirely safe. The rigour of their defence of it was very telling


I'm a bit biased when it comes to fracking as we did feel the Blackpool earthquake a couple of years ago, the cause of which was pointed towards test fracking locally

[caldeyrfc]

If only this country was sat on millions of tonnes of stuff you could turn into electricity, and yes I know it is dirty but if the excellent R and D unit at Cardiff Uni along the World leading R and D department of British Coal near Gloucester (forget the actual name of it) had not been shut then scrubbing and carbon capture might now be a viable option

[BBD]

Very true

With the expertise going unused for at least a generation, probably two, how viable is a resurgence in coal? Could it be economic to reopen the mines in Wales Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire? For the country as a whole I mean, I know locally it would be enormously beneficial

[caldeyrfc]

Very true

With the expertise going unused for at least a generation, probably two, how viable is a resurgence in coal? Could it be economic to reopen the mines in Wales Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire? For the country as a whole I mean, I know locally it would be enormously beneficial

Can't comment on anywhere else but most of the pits in the Valleys were near to exhaustion anyway, there is a large "take" of good quality coking coal near to where Port Talbot Steel works are which apparently could last 20 odd years, and there has been talk a number of times about opening it up, infact they almost started mining it from Tower about 10 years a go but they couldn't get the investment that was needed, the alternative is open cast but that means a massive upheaval where ever that method is used Caerphilly Council recently denied planning permission for a new opencast sit a couple of miles from where I live, but these sites are massive and the one at Dowlias Top has to be seen to be believed

[BBD]

Thanks, the impression I got was that Nottinghamshire was in a similar state and the warren of mines under ground was problematic to local building projects.
The issue with Yorkshire mines was that the strata of coal was more layered and harder to extract economically, but that was back then, if the technology and expertise exists then it comes back into contention as a viable option, similar to the open cast you describe

[Sandydragon]

That's surely the key issue, can it be made financially viable to extract the coal that's left? Genuine question as I don't know.

It won't be a long term solution, but it would bridge the gap, if the environmental lobby didn't oppose too vigorously and it was economically viable.

[BBD]

I did read a few years ago that the advancement in mining techniques would make the costs of production per ton lower, down to levels not seen since the Victorian era when safety was minimal, labour was cheap and management was exploitative

The difficulty lies with the initial investment to reopen the mines and up skill the workforce. I can't recall if they mentioned safety as an issue but culturally it has to be a factor these days

[canta_brian]

Micro-generation. Every new build house should have to have solar roofing (there are tiles available that don't need traditional panels). Hugely reduce the load on the traditional state/big business model.

Maybe small wind turbines etc where appropriate.

Even if this sort of thing only serviced the requirements of the house it is attached to it could quickly mean we don't need to increase capacity in the rest of the market. Allow excess power from these systems access to the national grid and the benefits would be even greater. We would probably have to renationalise the power industry for this to happen though as it could interfere with the profits of the basically nationalised French energy companies or the Chinese state.

[Mellsblue]

The green lobby will never let coal see the light of day. As far as Nottinghamshires mines go I'm no expert, but when some were shutdown whilst I lived there there wasn't much protest, more a reluctant acceptance that they weren't viable and a understandable sadness that a way of life that had dominated the area for decades had disappeared.

Micro-generation in all new builds and retro-fitting would be a game changer but it's too expensive. House prices are already too high. Legislating that all new builds must have solar panels etc would make them even more expensive. I believe there are moves to making building regs more stringent with regard to
Conservation of energy and power and this is, for me, the most cost effective way of reducing requirements from the grid. If I were in charge, god forbid, I'd slowly get the housing industry moving towards Passivehouse standards.

[caldeyrfc]

I did read a few years ago that the advancement in mining techniques would make the costs of production per ton lower, down to levels not seen since the Victorian era when safety was minimal, labour was cheap and management was exploitative

The difficulty lies with the initial investment to reopen the mines and up skill the workforce. I can't recall if they mentioned safety as an issue but culturally it has to be a factor these days

I'm sure there was a scheme talked about years a go which was similar to fraking where waste gas from a power station is forced into underground bore holes, which have been bored down into the seam of coal, under pressure forcing the methane out through other bore holes How viable this was god knows as only certain seams were particularly gassy, if you worked these seems conventionally you would quite often have to suspend work if the air pressure dropped ie a bad storm was imminent and I actually worked in 1 pit where the the changing and showering area and hot water were heated by methane extracted from underground

[Sandydragon]

I've just been reading that the Chinese contractor for Hinkley is about to face charges in the US for espionage. That deal gets remoter by the day.

[Lizard]

I've never understood the British nostalgia for times when the majority of the male work force in certain communities was engaged in dangerous, life-shortening, dirty work that involved building massive slag heaps that could collapse and smother the whole village.

Mind you, I also never understand the mandatory national crush on well-expired goods like Helen Mirren and Cilla Whatsername.

[Mellsblue]

I've never understood the British nostalgia for times when the majority of the male work force in certain communities was engaged in dangerous, life-shortening, dirty work that involved building massive slag heaps that could collapse and smother the whole village.

Mind you, I also never understand the mandatory national crush on well-expired goods like Helen Mirren and Cilla Whatsername.

Wholly agree with the first para. At a time we are having mass strikes because it is allegedly dangerous to move control of doors on trains from guard to driver, it seems counterintuitive to use the demise of the dangerous coal mining industry for fundraising and call to arms purposes for the Union movement.

The second para should have you banned from the Internet let alone RR.

[cashead]

I've never understood the British nostalgia for times when the majority of the male work force in certain communities was engaged in dangerous, life-shortening, dirty work that involved building massive slag heaps that could collapse and smother the whole village.

Mind you, I also never understand the mandatory national crush on well-expired goods like Helen Mirren and Cilla Whatsername.

Wholly agree with the first para. At a time we are having mass strikes because it is allegedly dangerous to move control of doors on trains from guard to driver, it seems counterintuitive to use the demise of the dangerous coal mining industry for fundraising and call to arms purposes for the Union movement.

The second para should have you banned from the Internet let alone RR.

Mel's correct here. The fuck is wrong with you, Lizard?

[Curry Puff]

Energy from coal, natural gas, oil and radio-active sources is finite; there is only so much on this planet. Wind, solar and wave/tidal sources are not finite. In Britain we have pretty much used up our offshore and onshore conventional natural gas reserves and conventional oil is fast declining, aided by the current price drop. All is not gloom and doom however, coal bed methane and other 'new' technologies may be able to provide up to another 30 odd years of gas to the UK (2004 Geological Survey estimate). As I understand it there is little potential for opening up old abandoned coal mines as these will be flooded and likely suffered collapses of the tunnel system. This is on top of any geological complexity such as high levels of faulting that reduce coal seam continuity and reduce profitability. It is a crying shame so many pits were shut down prematurely for reasons of dogma and so on.

Wind power is of dubious worth and is a bloody eyesore; the view from the north Wales coast is ruined by the massive wind farm development in Liverpool Bay. Tidal energy and the building of barrages, especially across the Severn has been mooted for around 150 years but thankfully has not yet gone ahead due to, above all, the massive cost. However my personal concern over such schemes are the likely environmental effects. A Severn Barrage would have the potential to have disastrous effects on the populations of migratory fish in three major river systems, Severn, Usk and Wye with salmon sea trout and eels all affected. Wetlands on the Severn Estuary are very important for local and migratory birds, again there is the potential for damage to this system. Large volumes of sediment are transported out into the Severn Estuary and silting could prove a very real threat to viability of such a construction.

With the lack of investment in nuclear power since the 1980's the UK is now in a very tricky situation, coal fired power stations have been decommissioned or converted, domestically produced gas is on its last legs (with increased dependence on Norway, Russia and Algeria for supply- at market rates and with concern over security of supply. Delays in now building more nuclear stations will only make the situation worse.
This mess was predictable 30 plus years ago but has been resolutely ignored by all governments who have merely offered wind power as the savior; perhaps an example of why not to listen too much to the avowedly anti oil company 'environmental' lobby and employ some basic scientific/economic planning. It amuses me to note that the one time scientific advisor to Greenpeace UK, in 1990's, and a vehement oil co critic is now running the largest Co. selling solar panels in the UK, self serving or what!!