AP Breakthrough XV 2016/17

[Scrumhead]

We've all mentioned players we'd like to see break through this season, so I thought it might be interesting to think about who I'd like to see in my breakthrough XV.

It might seem a bit odd to include players in the EPS, but my rationale is that if a player has less than 10 club starts, I'd argue that they've not fully made the break through.

My XV would be:

1. Ellis Genge (Leicester)
2. Jack Walker (Bath)
3. Scott Wilson (Newcastle)
4. Will Witty (Newcastle)
5. George Nott (Sale)
6. Lewis Ludlam (Northampton)
7. Will Evans (Leicester)
8. James Chisholm (Harlequins)

9. James Mitchell (Sale)
10. Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
11. Jonas Mikalcius (Harlequins)
12. Tom Stephenson (Northampton)
13. Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
14. Paolo Odogwu (Sale)
15. Max Malins (Saracens)

I'm also keen to see more of Callum Chick (Newcastle) and Callum Braley and Matt Protheroe (both Gloucester).

Obviously some will be closer than others, but I think all of the above have a decent chance of some reasonable game time this season.

Players like Wilson, Chisholm, Lozowski and Stephenson seem to have been around for a fair while, but personally, I think it's fair to say that they're now reaching the stage where they need to be pushing to start - certainly during the international breaks and the LV Cup.

[Puja]

Pretty good XV there. Looking forward to seeing more of George Nott after the JWC and 7s. Looks to be a very handy player indeed.

I actually wouldn't be surprised to see Sarries starting the season with a Lozowski/Farrell 10/12. Farrell will want game-time there to push his England credentials and I can imagine that Lozowski's made an impression in pre-season.

Puja

[TheNomad]

Good thread - worthy of plenty of thought, will come back later.

From what I've seen though Nott is a 6 not a lock (though I see it says he can play there on his profile)

Would be the quickest lock in the world!

[Beasties]

I'm expecting Lozowski to make Wasps fans sad this year. He should get plenty of gametime during the international windows and playing behind that Sarries pack he'll have a mostly armchair ride. Only fly in the ointment being that he'll be on a totally different wavelength to the rest of the Sarries backs. Hopefully Ben Spencer will get far more gametime this year which will help Loz's attacking instincts.

Good thread Scrumhead.
Edit: oops beat me to it Nomad.

[fivepointer]

That's a very good looking side.

I'd forgotten about Scott Wilson, who missed pretty much all last season with injury. He's a very fine prospect.

I'd throw a couple of names into the ring for consideration.

Nathan Earle at Saracens and Stuart Townsend at Exeter

[Tigersman]

For me
1) Genge (highly likely)
2) Walker (highly likely)
3) Stuart (not very likely)
4) Witty (Likely)
5) Ewels (Likely)/Ellis (unlikely)
6) Nott (Likely)
7) Evans (highly Likely)/Ludlam (unlikely)
8) Chisholm (Likely)
9) Spencer (likely)
10) Lozowski (Likely)
11) Earle (Likely I really hope so at least)
12) Mallinder as an out and out 12 (highly likely)
13) Stephenson (Evens)/Marchant (Likely)
14) Kilbridge (Likely)
15) Morris (Likely to be given chance when brown is out hopefully)

Odogwu for me is still a bit of the XV he was good in the AP 7's but he was dropped from England for a reason I guess.

Kilbridge and Earle are much further down the pro production.

[TheNomad]

Not sure I've ever seen Chisholm look that great to be honest.

Think someone put the other day that he had been a JRWC player of the year winner. Frankly I don't know what tournament people were watching that year, but Tevita Li and Akira Ioane were so far ahead of him it's absurd that he won it. Not exaggerating I'd have easily put 5 English players ahead of him (Hill, Genge, Ewels, Ludlam, Packman).

Maybe I'm being harsh but while his decision making is solid, I don't see has either the strenght, the speed, or a sufficiently interesting combination of the two to really cut it at test level. He's young of course but I don't see it yet.

[Stom]

Not sure I've ever seen Chisholm look that great to be honest.

Think someone put the other day that he had been a JRWC player of the year winner. Frankly I don't know what tournament people were watching that year, but Tevita Li and Akira Ioane were so far ahead of him it's absurd that he won it. Not exaggerating I'd have easily put 5 English players ahead of him (Hill, Genge, Ewels, Ludlam, Packman).

Maybe I'm being harsh but while his decision making is solid, I don't see has either the strenght, the speed, or a sufficiently interesting combination of the two to really cut it at test level. He's young of course but I don't see it yet.

No, I don't think Chisholm will be more than a solid club player. Like his brother could be if the injuries just stopped.

I'd settle for that right now, though, with the Quins backrow...

[Mikey Brown]

Pretty good XV there. Looking forward to seeing more of George Nott after the JWC and 7s. Looks to be a very handy player indeed.

I actually wouldn't be surprised to see Sarries starting the season with a Lozowski/Farrell 10/12. Farrell will want game-time there to push his England credentials and I can imagine that Lozowski's made an impression in pre-season.

Puja

Hasn't Barritt just been made club captain? I guess he won't play every game but seems near indestructible.

[Puja]

Pretty good XV there. Looking forward to seeing more of George Nott after the JWC and 7s. Looks to be a very handy player indeed.

I actually wouldn't be surprised to see Sarries starting the season with a Lozowski/Farrell 10/12. Farrell will want game-time there to push his England credentials and I can imagine that Lozowski's made an impression in pre-season.

Puja

Hasn't Barritt just been made club captain? I guess he won't play every game but seems near indestructible.

Oh - I hadn't heard that. May put a hole in my theory, although being club captain isn't necessarily a guarantee of a place anymoe (mentioning no Lee Dicksons).

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Good thread - worthy of plenty of thought, will come back later.

From what I've seen though Nott is a 6 not a lock (though I see it says he can play there on his profile)

Would be the quickest lock in the world!

Thanks. I thought it was worth discussing. I put Nott as a lock to fit him in to the side to be honest. For the same reason, Ludlam's in as a 6 rather than a 7 because I wanted to put both him and Evans in the side (although IIRC, he also played as a 6 in the U20 World Cup).

That's a very good looking side.

I'd forgotten about Scott Wilson, who missed pretty much all last season with injury. He's a very fine prospect.

I'd throw a couple of names into the ring for consideration.

Nathan Earle at Saracens and Stuart Townsend at Exeter

I think there's another group alongside this one of players who arguably could and should have made the breakthrough already but haven't either through a combination of injuries or lack of opportunity.

Nathan Earle and Stuart Townsend are definitely in the that group, as is Zach Kibirige and others like Howard Packman.

After that, there's another, slightly older group of players (23/24yrs old) who are (or at least were) regarded as high potential and definitely should have achieved more now. I'm thinking the likes of Ben Spencer and Mark Jennings.

[Mellsblue]

I hope Henry Taylor gets plenty of game time, hopefully at Bedford. He looks the business to me.

[Tigersman]

Earle is starting for Canterbury in the opening Mitre cup game V Auckland

[TheNomad]

Earle is starting for Canterbury in the opening Mitre cup game V Auckland

What sort of standard is that vs super rugby? Excuse the ignorance

His injury held him back big time, had hoped he'd be pressing for the elite squad by now, massively talented player

[Peej]

Used to be much higher but has been mucked about a bit with the extension of Super Rugby and the Rugby Championship. Will still serve him well being exposed to a different rugby culture, and there are enough decent players in it to push him

[Mellsblue]

It's a good idea even if it's not the highest level. Peej touches on the main points but we also need to avoid academy graduates being robots of the sport with no real life skills and concept of the world outside that of a pro rugby player. This is a great way of doing it whilst simultaneously improving their rugby.

I hope he goes well and comes back flying. I was at the ground when he sustained his injury and you could tell from the players' reactions that it was a bad one.

[Scrumhead]

It's interesting looking at this now ... I'm stuggling on a tight head and a 12, but based upon the season so far, my XV would now look something like:

1. Ellis Genge (Leicester) - getting a decent amount of game time and looking good.
2. Tom Dunn (Bath) - a bit older than the rest, but this is his first real breakthrough and he's looked decent in my opinion.
3. ???
4. Will Witty (Newcastle) - has continued to look like one of the stronger young locks in the AP.
5. Tom Ellis (Bath) - has seen more game time as a flanker, but has looked very at home at senior level.
6. James Chisholm (Harlequins) - probably more of an 8, but has been playing 6 in recent games and has been very good in both positions.
7. Tom/Ben Curry (Sale) - they seem to rotate so it seems unfair to pick one ahead of the other - both have looked very good when given opportunities.
8. Zach Mercer (Bath) - has impressed when he has played - seems to punch above his weight.

9. Jack Maunder (Exeter) - has looked good whenever he has been called-upon. Looks to have a decent pass and a sniping instinct.
10. Alex Lozowski (Saracens) - was probably fortunate with his EPS call-up, but has taken his chances when he has played and done well.
11. Pablo Odogwu (Sale) - has looked exciting when he has had opportunities and has shown he can score tries in the AP.
12. ???
13. Joe Marchant (Harlequins) - looking very good and living up to the hype.
14. Perry Humphreys (Worcester) - a couple of memorable tries already and looks like a good prospect.
15. Jamie Shillcock (Worcester) - has looked composed at both 10 and 15. Looks like he has a bright future.

[Which Tyler]

Max Clark for IC?

[Scrumhead]

Clark is a decent shout for 12.

I can't think of a tight head making a breakthrough or even really looking like it so far this season?

[Puja]

Clark is a decent shout for 12.

I can't think of a tight head making a breakthrough or even really looking like it so far this season?

Scott Wilson has looked pretty handy for Newcastle in his limited time. He's only just back from injury though, so give him a few more months and I think he'll be making a real run for it.

Puja

[Tigersman]

Harry Williams for TH maybe?

[Which Tyler]

He's a bit old for it (26), but you could count KPN as a breakthrough THP this year. He's up around 400 minutes already this season; which is about as much as he'd had in the previous 3 years put together (not particularly suffering from injury).
Pushing it though; but probably not as far as Scott Wilson (yet)

[Scrumhead]

Clark is a decent shout for 12.

I can't think of a tight head making a breakthrough or even really looking like it so far this season?

Scott Wilson has looked pretty handy for Newcastle in his limited time. He's only just back from injury though, so give him a few more months and I think he'll be making a real run for it.

Puja

Scott Wilson was in my original XV. I just didn't feel as though he'd had enough game time to say he'd made a proper breakthrough so far this season.

From my original team, there are a few who haven't really kicked-on as hoped.

Will Evans has had some decent game time so far this season without really standing out, so I hope he can put in a few more eye-catching displays between now and the end of the season and Lewis Ludlam continues to struggle to get any meaningful action. I'm hoping that changes - particularly if there's a change at the top at Saints.

The Currys have blown both out of the water so far. There's been a buzz about them for some time, but I don't think anyone seriously thought they'd be challenging for Sale's first XV at 18 years old.

Hopefully Nott will get some more game time with Sale but the Currys are probably keeping him out of the team as a 6 at the moment and IMO he's not really a lock.

[TheNomad]

Was hoping to have seen more of Nott but the Curry boys have superseded him it would seem. Have seen him play lock but he looks more of a 6 to me

[Edit: just seen you've put something almost identical above as I was writing - totally agree, obvs]

Maunder is obviously starting to make serious inroads at Exe

Not sure what's happened to Humphreys, is he injured? Started brilliantly but has gone off the radar.

This thread could be merged with the prospects one really couldn't it?

[Tigersman]

Was hoping to have seen more of Nott but the Curry boys have superseded him it would seem. Have seen him play lock but he looks more of a 6 to me

[Edit: just seen you've put something almost identical above as I was writing - totally agree, obvs]

Maunder is obviously starting to make serious inroads at Exe

Not sure what's happened to Humphreys, is he injured? Started brilliantly but has gone off the radar.

This thread could be merged with the prospects one really couldn't it?

Humphreys is injured think he is Out for the season.