RugbyRebels

Yeah, I had a look back at Care's match stats (not totally up to date http://en.espn.co.uk/statsguru/rugby/pl ... view=match) and I was surprised how many starts he's had under Jones. I can't remember when that has or hasn't been due to Youngs's injury/Lions/family though.

Either way I think we've all had the sense Jones doesn't trust Care as a starter (and I don't think Care has done much to persuade him, even though some of his starts have been in less than ideal scenarios) but
he's waited this long to take a serious look at how anyone else would fare in the 9 shirt. W'Worth/Spencer/Robson have had a bit of time here and there, but as with Daly at fullback, it feels quite late in the day to be figuring out something so key.

You could argue that the indecision over who plays fly-half won't have helped in assessing options at 9, but then who's fault is that? I still think Care/Farrell or Youngs/Ford (did) make much more sense as combos if you're so dead-set on using those 4 players, but whatever.

Oakboy wrote:

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
3 out of 5 odds and it's not Youngs. He has Nos 1 and 5 in his SH list available. That is bad enough but had Youngs been ill instead of Robson it would have been unprepared No 2 and No 5. Sounds like failing to me.

Again how is it Jones failing? There’s 3 scrum halves out. So....

He called up Robson and Robson is ill and thus has to be replaced. Care and Wigglesworth are also out so he calls Spencer. And the problem is?

He is failing because he has no ready starting alternatives to Youngs and the risk of having no back-up is highlighted by injuries/illness to three SHs who theoretically (but not realistically in terms of recent game time) might be in the squad. He is lucky that Youngs is not one of the three because he has FAILED to prepare an alternative.

But he does have clear alternatives, Care and Wigglesworth, whilst not right for England's future (maybe) are both experienced SHs.

Now, I think EJ's not pushing the role forward enough, not giving better players enough game time, and stifling the team by persisting all the time with Youngs is an issue…

But essentially what you're saying is that if Youngs, Care, and WW were all injured then he would have failed to prepare an alternative

If Farrell and Ford were injured, he'd be in the same boat

If Mako, Genge, and Moon were injured, he'd be in the same boat

And I shudder to think what he'd do if Daly and Brown were injured currently

Renniks wrote:And I shudder to think what he'd do if Daly and Brown were injured currently

Yo'ud shudder at the thought of Watson at FB?

Jones will function as well as his senior players will let him. At the moment he has Owen Farell and Ben Youngs basically taking command of the attacking structure of the team. That there is the ceiling for EJ's ability as a coach. He doesn't have a George Smith or a George Gregan or a Stephen Larkham or a Fumiaki Tanaka. If those two are the backbone of everything in the England team, and it looks like they are, then you are stuck with to. Sorry.

Which Tyler wrote:

Renniks wrote:And I shudder to think what he'd do if Daly and Brown were injured currently

Yo'ud shudder at the thought of Watson at FB?

Needs some club games there tbh

Which Tyler wrote:

Renniks wrote:And I shudder to think what he'd do if Daly and Brown were injured currently

Yo'ud shudder at the thought of Watson at FB?

Injured too!

Renniks wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Epaminondas Pules wrote:
Again how is it Jones failing? There’s 3 scrum halves out. So....

He called up Robson and Robson is ill and thus has to be replaced. Care and Wigglesworth are also out so he calls Spencer. And the problem is?

He is failing because he has no ready starting alternatives to Youngs and the risk of having no back-up is highlighted by injuries/illness to three SHs who theoretically (but not realistically in terms of recent game time) might be in the squad. He is lucky that Youngs is not one of the three because he has FAILED to prepare an alternative.

But he does have clear alternatives, Care and Wigglesworth, whilst not right for England's future (maybe) are both experienced SHs.

Now, I think EJ's not pushing the role forward enough, not giving better players enough game time, and stifling the team by persisting all the time with Youngs is an issue…

But essentially what you're saying is that if Youngs, Care, and WW were all injured then he would have failed to prepare an alternative

If Farrell and Ford were injured, he'd be in the same boat

If Mako, Genge, and Moon were injured, he'd be in the same boat

And I shudder to think what he'd do if Daly and Brown were injured currently

No, I'm saying that he has NO fully credible alternative now (he may have regarded Care as one in the past) to Youngs because he has failed to settle on one and give him significant game time. Three SHs unavailable highlights the need for one because it is pure luck that one of the three is not Youngs.

IMO, 2 or 3 injuries to any other position does not cause the same degree of disadvantage, not because the playing strength is necessarily different but because Jones has not prepared. Do you regard Robson or Spencer as ready to start against Scotland? As far as we know, Robson was well enough to start against Italy but Jones opted not to start him. Why? He has previously started Care in similar circumstances.

Renniks wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Epaminondas Pules wrote:
Again how is it Jones failing? There’s 3 scrum halves out. So....

He called up Robson and Robson is ill and thus has to be replaced. Care and Wigglesworth are also out so he calls Spencer. And the problem is?

He is failing because he has no ready starting alternatives to Youngs and the risk of having no back-up is highlighted by injuries/illness to three SHs who theoretically (but not realistically in terms of recent game time) might be in the squad. He is lucky that Youngs is not one of the three because he has FAILED to prepare an alternative.

But he does have clear alternatives, Care and Wigglesworth, whilst not right for England's future (maybe) are both experienced SHs.

Now, I think EJ's not pushing the role forward enough, not giving better players enough game time, and stifling the team by persisting all the time with Youngs is an issue…

But essentially what you're saying is that if Youngs, Care, and WW were all injured then he would have failed to prepare an alternative

If Farrell and Ford were injured, he'd be in the same boat

If Mako, Genge, and Moon were injured, he'd be in the same boat

And I shudder to think what he'd do if Daly and Brown were injured currently

You’d be happy if he brought in Care/Wigglesworth with three days prep to start a match?

I still shudder at the thought of Daly as fb.

Mellsblue wrote: You’d be happy if he brought in Care/Wigglesworth with three days prep to start a match?

Stand over ball, look left look right, roll ball with foot then kick. What would they do for the other 2 and a half days

p/d wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: You’d be happy if he brought in Care/Wigglesworth with three days prep to start a match?

Stand over ball, look left look right, roll ball with foot then kick. What would they do for the other 2 and a half days

Same as Youngs then, other than the option of dumping the ball at someone's knees. Kinda proves point that he hasn't looked at anyone else

(not a dig at you, just pissed off at the SH scenario we're in)

p/d wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: You’d be happy if he brought in Care/Wigglesworth with three days prep to start a match?

Stand over ball, look left look right, roll ball with foot then kick. What would they do for the other 2 and a half days

Good point.

Danno wrote:

p/d wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: You’d be happy if he brought in Care/Wigglesworth with three days prep to start a match?

Stand over ball, look left look right, roll ball with foot then kick. What would they do for the other 2 and a half days

Same as Youngs then, other than the option of dumping the ball at someone's knees. Kinda proves point that he hasn't looked at anyone else

(not a dig at you, just pissed off at the SH scenario we're in)

Danno, I’m mocking Youngs and Jones (who I think is a right tit)

I want to know who turned Ben Youngs from an instinctive running 9 into a kicking automaton who hasn't worked on his passing since 2011.

TBH - I feel the same. What has happened to his running game? Has he even attempted to snipe once during the 6N?

p/d wrote:

Danno wrote:

p/d wrote:
Stand over ball, look left look right, roll ball with foot then kick. What would they do for the other 2 and a half days

Same as Youngs then, other than the option of dumping the ball at someone's knees. Kinda proves point that he hasn't looked at anyone else

(not a dig at you, just pissed off at the SH scenario we're in)

Danno, I’m mocking Youngs and Jones (who I think is a right tit)

Gotcha. In my meagre defence it has gone beyond parody

Oakboy wrote:

Renniks wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
He is failing because he has no ready starting alternatives to Youngs and the risk of having no back-up is highlighted by injuries/illness to three SHs who theoretically (but not realistically in terms of recent game time) might be in the squad. He is lucky that Youngs is not one of the three because he has FAILED to prepare an alternative.

But he does have clear alternatives, Care and Wigglesworth, whilst not right for England's future (maybe) are both experienced SHs.

Now, I think EJ's not pushing the role forward enough, not giving better players enough game time, and stifling the team by persisting all the time with Youngs is an issue…

But essentially what you're saying is that if Youngs, Care, and WW were all injured then he would have failed to prepare an alternative

If Farrell and Ford were injured, he'd be in the same boat

If Mako, Genge, and Moon were injured, he'd be in the same boat

And I shudder to think what he'd do if Daly and Brown were injured currently

No, I'm saying that he has NO fully credible alternative now (he may have regarded Care as one in the past) to Youngs because he has failed to settle on one and give him significant game time. Three SHs unavailable highlights the need for one because it is pure luck that one of the three is not Youngs.

IMO, 2 or 3 injuries to any other position does not cause the same degree of disadvantage, not because the playing strength is necessarily different but because Jones has not prepared. Do you regard Robson or Spencer as ready to start against Scotland? As far as we know, Robson was well enough to start against Italy but Jones opted not to start him. Why? He has previously started Care in similar circumstances.

2 or 3 injuries doesn’t cause the same level?

I’m struggling to think of any position, aside from wing, where this would be the case. Or a nation where their 4/5th choice SH doesn’t have a shitload of caps.

And not starting him in what would have been his second Cap is hardly surprising. Especially after a loss.

Mellsblue wrote:

Renniks wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
He is failing because he has no ready starting alternatives to Youngs and the risk of having no back-up is highlighted by injuries/illness to three SHs who theoretically (but not realistically in terms of recent game time) might be in the squad. He is lucky that Youngs is not one of the three because he has FAILED to prepare an alternative.

But he does have clear alternatives, Care and Wigglesworth, whilst not right for England's future (maybe) are both experienced SHs.

Now, I think EJ's not pushing the role forward enough, not giving better players enough game time, and stifling the team by persisting all the time with Youngs is an issue…

But essentially what you're saying is that if Youngs, Care, and WW were all injured then he would have failed to prepare an alternative

If Farrell and Ford were injured, he'd be in the same boat

If Mako, Genge, and Moon were injured, he'd be in the same boat

And I shudder to think what he'd do if Daly and Brown were injured currently

You’d be happy if he brought in Care/Wigglesworth with three days prep to start a match?

If illness or injury forced such a situation then hell yeah. Care only has the odd 85 caps, been around the system for a little while and knows one or two of the plays and tactics. Wigglesworth is a massively experienced SH also.

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Renniks wrote:
But he does have clear alternatives, Care and Wigglesworth, whilst not right for England's future (maybe) are both experienced SHs.

Now, I think EJ's not pushing the role forward enough, not giving better players enough game time, and stifling the team by persisting all the time with Youngs is an issue…

But essentially what you're saying is that if Youngs, Care, and WW were all injured then he would have failed to prepare an alternative

If Farrell and Ford were injured, he'd be in the same boat

If Mako, Genge, and Moon were injured, he'd be in the same boat

And I shudder to think what he'd do if Daly and Brown were injured currently

You’d be happy if he brought in Care/Wigglesworth with three days prep to start a match?

If illness or injury forced such a situation then hell yeah. Care only has the odd 85 caps, been around the system for a little while and knows one or two of the plays and tactics. Wigglesworth is a massively experienced SH also.

You wouldn’t rather start a Robson with 80 mins against Italy plus another 50 mins spread across the other three matches and maybe another 30/40 mins from SA? Care has been dropped. How is he suddenly good enough to start?

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Renniks wrote:
But he does have clear alternatives, Care and Wigglesworth, whilst not right for England's future (maybe) are both experienced SHs.

Now, I think EJ's not pushing the role forward enough, not giving better players enough game time, and stifling the team by persisting all the time with Youngs is an issue…

But essentially what you're saying is that if Youngs, Care, and WW were all injured then he would have failed to prepare an alternative

If Farrell and Ford were injured, he'd be in the same boat

If Mako, Genge, and Moon were injured, he'd be in the same boat

And I shudder to think what he'd do if Daly and Brown were injured currently

No, I'm saying that he has NO fully credible alternative now (he may have regarded Care as one in the past) to Youngs because he has failed to settle on one and give him significant game time. Three SHs unavailable highlights the need for one because it is pure luck that one of the three is not Youngs.

IMO, 2 or 3 injuries to any other position does not cause the same degree of disadvantage, not because the playing strength is necessarily different but because Jones has not prepared. Do you regard Robson or Spencer as ready to start against Scotland? As far as we know, Robson was well enough to start against Italy but Jones opted not to start him. Why? He has previously started Care in similar circumstances.

2 or 3 injuries doesn’t cause the same level?

I’m struggling to think of any position, aside from wing, where this would be the case. Or a nation where their 4/5th choice SH doesn’t have a shitload of caps.

And not starting him in what would have been his second Cap is hardly surprising. Especially after a loss.

I think that's kind of the point. Only 2 SHs have got any number of caps under Jones and one of them has now been dropped. Yet Robson still only has around 25 minutes of international rugby, Spencer less, Wigglesworth not much more, and Maunder a handful.

It is a mess of his own making. He needed to blood some players a lot earlier.

The 8/9/10 positions form a crucial link for a team's success. Over the last few years Vinipola/Spencer/Farrell have played frequently together for Saracens. For the Scotland match, would Eddie dare start with Spencer and have Young on the bench?

As ever with Eddie it seems he gives on one hand - the recall of Wilson and Slade - and takes with the other - dropping Big Joe, Hughes on the bench, Genge dropped.
Anyone else reckon Spencer will get all of 5 minutes off the bench?

Ben Youngs becomes England's highest capped 9 with 85.

FFS

A better back row for sure, harsh on Coka. Genge will come on i've no doubt.

Spencer will only come on if we are out of sight with 5 to go I reckon

Teo on the bench is utterly ridiculous.