RugbyRebels

Puja wrote:

Spiffy wrote:

TheNomad wrote:
Yup. He can cover 10 and centre too. Would be quite a good bench option IMO

He might be a good bench option to come on and close down the game if his team is in the lead. But if England are chasing the game it's difficult to see him doing much in the inventive/attacking department to pull something out of the hat and get them ahead.

If we're chasing, but a Ford plus two centres attack is looking good, we wouldn't want to bring any of them off anyway. If we're chasing and Ford plus two centres isn't working, then he offers something different by having the Ford/Farrell axis.

Puja

All things are possible, but the Ford/Farrell axis has not been impressive. It's all moot anyway since it's not going to happen. I may be wrong, but I can't remember a single game where Faz did not start and was later sprung from the bench, with or without Ford beside him. I would like to see a squad for a game or two with no Faz at all in the 23, with Ford pulling the strings at10.
And at some point Jones should really be looking to give an opportunity at 10 to Marcus Smith or Joe Simmonds. Great, confident young players who could easily and gradually be blooded into international rugby.

Spiffy wrote:

Puja wrote:

Spiffy wrote:He might be a good bench option to come on and close down the game if his team is in the lead. But if England are chasing the game it's difficult to see him doing much in the inventive/attacking department to pull something out of the hat and get them ahead.

If we're chasing, but a Ford plus two centres attack is looking good, we wouldn't want to bring any of them off anyway. If we're chasing and Ford plus two centres isn't working, then he offers something different by having the Ford/Farrell axis.

Puja

All things are possible, but the Ford/Farrell axis has not been impressive. It's all moot anyway since it's not going to happen. I may be wrong, but I can't remember a single game where Faz did not start and was later sprung from the bench, with or without Ford beside him. I would like to see a squad for a game or two with no Faz at all in the 23, with Ford pulling the strings at10.
And at some point Jones should really be looking to give an opportunity at 10 to Marcus Smith or Joe Simmonds. Great, confident young players who could easily and gradually be blooded into international rugby.

I actually quite like the Ford/Farrell axis and think it works well. Each to their own.

IIRC, Farrell has not been benched for England since Lancaster's tenure (he spent most of 2015 on the bench with Ford taking the 10 shirt, right up until the game against Wales where our coaches went, "Ooh, their midfield's a bit big isn't it?" and promptly threw out a year's worth of selection (and any understanding that Barritt was a good 12 and a completely unproven and untested 13) to line up Farrell/[Redacted]/Barritt. You might recall how well that ended).

Puja

Farrell was on the bench for the Japan game in the 2018 Autumn series. We were pretty rubbish in the 1st half and Farrell came on at half time to play 12. We were loads better in the 2nd half.

Timbo wrote:Farrell was on the bench for the Japan game in the 2018 Autumn series. We were pretty rubbish in the 1st half and Farrell came on at half time to play 12. We were loads better in the 2nd half.

Perhaps, but just look at the lineup. It's not exactly a fair comparison. 1st half was basically Lozoski and Nowell at 12 and 13, 2nd half Farrell and Slade. And I'd imagine the blow drier treatment at half time helped.

Bit of a nothing piece from austin but talks about the italians heckling faz.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... line-know/

That was the highlight of the match, particularly as he absolutely Ice-manned the kick anyway*

*Shanked it.

More opinion from Care and Monye here - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56084572

"Only last year everyone was loving Owen Farrell," Care said. "People were saying he was the best player in the world and nearly won us a World Cup. Now they are screaming for him not to play," he continued.

yeah, EVERYONE loved Owen and thought that he nearly won us the WC. Literally on his own.

Ugo opines - "He is such a dominant character and leader that, when it goes well, you can attribute a big performance to him," Monye said.

"When it doesn't go so well and you are that dominant a figure, some of those errors get attributed to you. I think he is probably finding it a bit tough right now."

Thanks for the insight guys......

A hyperbolic accusation of hyperbole, a rare thing indeed on social media

I wish somebody'd pay me to pundit. It's so easy.

fivepointer wrote:More opinion from Care and Monye here - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56084572

"Only last year everyone was loving Owen Farrell," Care said. "People were saying he was the best player in the world and nearly won us a World Cup. Now they are screaming for him not to play," he continued.

yeah, EVERYONE loved Owen and thought that he nearly won us the WC. Literally on his own.

Ugo opines - "He is such a dominant character and leader that, when it goes well, you can attribute a big performance to him," Monye said.

"When it doesn't go so well and you are that dominant a figure, some of those errors get attributed to you. I think he is probably finding it a bit tough right now."

Thanks for the insight guys......

I think Mr Care can speak for himself with regards to his loving Farrell comment - unless he’s talking about rugby press as for best player in the world we’ll now there’s a new contender for best comedian in the world

Don’t think Owen Farrell and his relative merits have been discussed enough on this forum, so thought I’d mention that Chris Robshaw has said that Farrell is the best player he’s ever played with.

Timbo wrote:Don’t think Owen Farrell and his relative merits have been discussed enough on this forum, so thought I’d mention that Chris Robshaw has said that Farrell is the best player he’s ever played with.

He must have been paid a lot to say that, or has suffered a concussion.

Timbo wrote:Don’t think Owen Farrell and his relative merits have been discussed enough on this forum, so thought I’d mention that Chris Robshaw has said that Farrell is the best player he’s ever played with.

What does that say about Robshaw's rugby judgement?

Oakboy wrote:

Timbo wrote:Don’t think Owen Farrell and his relative merits have been discussed enough on this forum, so thought I’d mention that Chris Robshaw has said that Farrell is the best player he’s ever played with.

What does that say about Robshaw's rugby judgement?

Impeccable?

Oakboy wrote:

Timbo wrote:Don’t think Owen Farrell and his relative merits have been discussed enough on this forum, so thought I’d mention that Chris Robshaw has said that Farrell is the best player he’s ever played with.

What does that say about Robshaw's rugby judgement?

About as good as his going out for dinner judgement...

Timbo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Timbo wrote:Don’t think Owen Farrell and his relative merits have been discussed enough on this forum, so thought I’d mention that Chris Robshaw has said that Farrell is the best player he’s ever played with.

What does that say about Robshaw's rugby judgement?

Impeccable?

Well, possibly! Just as one little aside, that makes this board wrong in its majority opinion that Ford is the better FH of the two. I suppose Robshaw was a workaholic type player so he would perhaps opt for application over flair - in line with Jones?

Dan. Dan. Dan. wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Timbo wrote:Don’t think Owen Farrell and his relative merits have been discussed enough on this forum, so thought I’d mention that Chris Robshaw has said that Farrell is the best player he’s ever played with.

What does that say about Robshaw's rugby judgement?

About as good as his going out for dinner judgement...

Timbo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Timbo wrote:Don’t think Owen Farrell and his relative merits have been discussed enough on this forum, so thought I’d mention that Chris Robshaw has said that Farrell is the best player he’s ever played with.

What does that say about Robshaw's rugby judgement?

Impeccable?

Do you really think that? Your judgement calls normally seem pretty good tbh.

Banquo wrote:

Timbo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
What does that say about Robshaw's rugby judgement?

Impeccable?

Do you really think that? Your judgement calls normally seem pretty good tbh.

Genuinely, I flip-flop on him quite a bit nowadays. I don’t think his form has been up to much since rugby restarted in August.

More generally, I think his technical skills are a little under rated on this forum. I don’t think you could survive at Lions level, for eg, if you were training with the likes of Sexton and your basics weren’t on point. You just wouldn’t get the kind of respect that he clearly commands. He also obviously has a presence both on and off the field that teams/squads respond to. I think his will to win, professionalism, focus etc could be awe inspiring to be around, especially in the right environments. Unquestionably, overall, he’s a good international in my mind.

All that said, I’m not oblivious to his faults. He’s more limited that you would ideally like. For someone so steeped in rugby he doesn’t always have a great ‘feel’ for the game. Quite robotic as has been said many times. He’s a very decent, but not elite goal kicker. Misses too many tackles, but generally I can live with that as he does loads defensively that’s not seen. The good far outweighs the bad there for me.

I would have him in my England squad, heavily involved, but not as captain. Maybe second choice 10 and in my rotation of 12’s depending on opposition and game plan. No idea how he’d take that demotion though and how it would effect the squad dynamic.

harsh question for Robshaw, he never went on a jamboree and was thus stuck playing for Quins and England, slim pickings on the best player front

Timbo wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Timbo wrote:
Impeccable?

Do you really think that? Your judgement calls normally seem pretty good tbh.

Genuinely, I flip-flop on him quite a bit nowadays. I don’t think his form has been up to much since rugby restarted in August.

More generally, I think his technical skills are a little under rated on this forum. I don’t think you could survive at Lions level, for eg, if you were training with the likes of Sexton and your basics weren’t on point. You just wouldn’t get the kind of respect that he clearly commands. He also obviously has a presence both on and off the field that teams/squads respond to. I think his will to win, professionalism, focus etc could be awe inspiring to be around, especially in the right environments. Unquestionably, overall, he’s a good international in my mind.

All that said, I’m not oblivious to his faults. He’s more limited that you would ideally like. For someone so steeped in rugby he doesn’t always have a great ‘feel’ for the game. Quite robotic as has been said many times. He’s a very decent, but not elite goal kicker. Misses too many tackles, but generally I can live with that as he does loads defensively that’s not seen. The good far outweighs the bad there for me.

I would have him in my England squad, heavily involved, but not as captain. Maybe second choice 10 and in my rotation of 12’s depending on opposition and game plan. No idea how he’d take that demotion though and how it would effect the squad dynamic.

Good far outweighing the bad doesnt quite chime with 'best player Ive ever played with' as impeccable judgement ? Pretty much agree with your view, tho his passing is well below what i would want- the big but is....but what do I know, compared to his peers and all the coaches he works with. imo hes no more than a functional intl. even with 'seeing the unseen.

I think the two important questions about Farrell (and any player, come to that) are:

1. Has he reached his ceiling?
2. Is someone else's ceiling (currently or potentially) higher?

A supplementary question, in the Hartley slant, might be:

Does Farrell's presence add something significantly extra?

Fair questions. I suspect he answer to all three questions is yes. The problem is that the if the answer to the last question being a yes, seems to outweigh the other two. That then creates the dilemma.

Oakboy wrote:I think the two important questions about Farrell (and any player, come to that) are:

1. Has he reached his ceiling?
2. Is someone else's ceiling (currently or potentially) higher?

A supplementary question, in the Hartley slant, might be:

Does Farrell's presence add something significantly extra?

It must do.

Based on what we see, Farrell looks to be a mostly competent, yet hardly outstanding player. His limitations are plain to see. And yet his peers seem to regard him highly and coaches continue to pick him.

I think he does have a galvanising effect on those players around him, who i imagine admire his determination and commitment, while coaches like the fact that he stays on script. That must count for an awful lot.

It makes me wonder if the final 'solution' might be Curry. I'm thinking along captaincy lines.

Previously, I've always thought Itoje was the answer but there are two problems with him, perhaps: 1. He's playing for club and country with/under Farrell; 2. Discipline.

Might Curry develop into real inspiration/leadership territory? He's not there yet but he's not far off. He's undoubtedly a first choice pick.