RugbyRebels

Banquo wrote:

Peat wrote:

Banquo wrote: and changed his mind in 35 mins of play....

Given that he didn't put in Jonny Hill, but is rather relying on a back row providing cover, I'm not sure he has changed his mind on who his 5th best lock is - merely changed it on how good his 5th best lock is.

I didnt say what bit of his mind had changed....

Its crap as Dasher says tho. Hope he doesn't end up Burrell'ed

I assumed it was the part of the mind we were discussing Although, tbh, its possible he had some deep doubts coming into the tour about Isiekwe as it was - just that he had more about others. What locks has Jones been overlooking this tour?

But can't say I like it either.

Peat wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Peat wrote:
Given that he didn't put in Jonny Hill, but is rather relying on a back row providing cover, I'm not sure he has changed his mind on who his 5th best lock is - merely changed it on how good his 5th best lock is.

I didnt say what bit of his mind had changed....

Its crap as Dasher says tho. Hope he doesn't end up Burrell'ed

I assumed it was the part of the mind we were discussing Although, tbh, its possible he had some deep doubts coming into the tour about Isiekwe as it was - just that he had more about others. What locks has Jones been overlooking this tour?

But can't say I like it either.

No idea what point you are trying to make with that locks statement? He's overlooked Hill.

Can't say I'm confident we'll win, but I'm not confident we'll lose either.

Banquo wrote:

Peat wrote:

Banquo wrote: I didnt say what bit of his mind had changed....

Its crap as Dasher says tho. Hope he doesn't end up Burrell'ed

I assumed it was the part of the mind we were discussing Although, tbh, its possible he had some deep doubts coming into the tour about Isiekwe as it was - just that he had more about others. What locks has Jones been overlooking this tour?

But can't say I like it either.

No idea what point you are trying to make with that locks statement? He's overlooked Hill.

The point about whether Jones had much confidence in Isiekwe to begin with - has he been overlooking a bunch of guys really putting their hands up, or is Jones scraping the barrel here?

Oakboy wrote:Is anybody confident that we will win?

No. Though it's not a great bok team so If the forwards go well I can see the boks struggling. Truth is we should be whitewashing a new bok team this close to a WC not looking for positives.

pandion wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Is anybody confident that we will win?

No. Though it's not a great bok team so If the forwards go well I can see the boks struggling. Truth is we should be whitewashing a new bok team this close to a WC not looking for positives.

Agreed- though never underestimate the Boks at home (have they ever been whitewashed in a 3 or greater series?); and come the world cup, they will be a much better unit, subject to fitness (Eztebeth, Marx, Kriel etc).

I'm sick of being an England fan.

That is all.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Raggs wrote:Can't say I'm confident we'll win, but I'm not confident we'll lose either.

How about a draw...feeling confident?

Does Brown wear nitrous oxide boots for training or something?

I think we'll win to be honest, despite the EJ madness. I suspect we'll tighten up a bit and give De Klerk a good beating. We'll win but by god does Eddie fuck us all off along the way.

Oakboy wrote:Is anybody confident that we will win?

We've got a decent chance. I think overall the team is better and will be better for having a game behind them.

I wouldnt write us off, though its plain we are going to have to front up in the forwards and defend a whole lot better.

Banquo wrote:

pandion wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Is anybody confident that we will win?

No. Though it's not a great bok team so If the forwards go well I can see the boks struggling. Truth is we should be whitewashing a new bok team this close to a WC not looking for positives.

Agreed- though never underestimate the Boks at home (have they ever been whitewashed in a 3 or greater series?); and come the world cup, they will be a much better unit, subject to fitness (Eztebeth, Marx, Kriel etc).

Are we even making progress, though? Launchbury is back but one less injury should not be that significant. Shields may be the real deal at 6 but so might Armand. Can Daly/Brown be the future this way round?

I just don't see the selection strategy for improvement. Beyond that, will our defence improve by the amount required? Finally, the first definition of management has to do with maximising resources available. Jones is miles away from that.

It's not just losing that is disappointing, it's the feeling that we could do a lot better, game on game.

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

pandion wrote: No. Though it's not a great bok team so If the forwards go well I can see the boks struggling. Truth is we should be whitewashing a new bok team this close to a WC not looking for positives.

Agreed- though never underestimate the Boks at home (have they ever been whitewashed in a 3 or greater series?); and come the world cup, they will be a much better unit, subject to fitness (Eztebeth, Marx, Kriel etc).

Are we even making progress, though? Launchbury is back but one less injury should not be that significant. Shields may be the real deal at 6 but so might Armand. Can Daly/Brown be the future this way round?

I just don't see the selection strategy for improvement. Beyond that, will our defence improve by the amount required? Finally, the first definition of management has to do with maximising resources available. Jones is miles away from that.

It's not just losing that is disappointing, it's the feeling that we could do a lot better, game on game.

Do you spontaneously combust if you write a post without mentioning Armand, Slade or Cipriani? I used to think the same about Hughes but you haven’t mentioned him in a while

If I stop being facetious, I think, yes, we are making progress but it’s progress that should’ve been in the AI’s. That progress is a proper backrow, George at hooker, Daly or Watson at fullback and a back/attack coach.

Mellsblue wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote: Agreed- though never underestimate the Boks at home (have they ever been whitewashed in a 3 or greater series?); and come the world cup, they will be a much better unit, subject to fitness (Eztebeth, Marx, Kriel etc).

Are we even making progress, though? Launchbury is back but one less injury should not be that significant. Shields may be the real deal at 6 but so might Armand. Can Daly/Brown be the future this way round?

I just don't see the selection strategy for improvement. Beyond that, will our defence improve by the amount required? Finally, the first definition of management has to do with maximising resources available. Jones is miles away from that.

It's not just losing that is disappointing, it's the feeling that we could do a lot better, game on game.

Do you spontaneously combust if you write a post without mentioning Armand, Slade or Cipriani? I used to think the same about Hughes but you haven’t mentioned him in a while

If I stop being facetious, I think, yes, we are making progress but it’s progress that should’ve been in the AI’s. That progress is a proper backrow, George at hooker, Daly or Watson at fullback and a back/attack coach.

its one step forward- assume that one 20 minute attack swallow made a summer, and two back though- pathetic defence, poor discipline. You've missed scrum half and midfield out in terms of progressing.

All that said a fully fit and fresh team of

Mako
George
Williams/Cole
Launch
Itoje
Shields- lets see him at 6
Curry
Billy
Robson
Ford
Daly
Teo/Slade
JJ
May
Watson

LCD, Genge, Williams/Cole, Lawes, Simmonds, Care, Farrell, Wade/Nowell. Might be interesting- I'm sure I've missed someone out

Mellsblue wrote: If I stop being facetious, I think, yes, we are making progress but it’s progress that should’ve been in the AI’s. That progress is a proper backrow, George at hooker, Daly or Watson at fullback and a back/attack coach.

Backrow progress, maybe. I didn't think George was any improvement over Hartley. I still think Daly at FB is cranky. But, hey-ho, I don't blame you for straw-clutching.

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

pandion wrote: No. Though it's not a great bok team so If the forwards go well I can see the boks struggling. Truth is we should be whitewashing a new bok team this close to a WC not looking for positives.

Agreed- though never underestimate the Boks at home (have they ever been whitewashed in a 3 or greater series?); and come the world cup, they will be a much better unit, subject to fitness (Eztebeth, Marx, Kriel etc).

Are we even making progress, though? Launchbury is back but one less injury should not be that significant. Shields may be the real deal at 6 but so might Armand. Can Daly/Brown be the future this way round?

I just don't see the selection strategy for improvement. Beyond that, will our defence improve by the amount required? Finally, the first definition of management has to do with maximising resources available. Jones is miles away from that.

It's not just losing that is disappointing, it's the feeling that we could do a lot better, game on game.

It's Launch. It's a huge thing. I think nearly all test teams would struggle losing 3 of their top 4 locks.

I'm more and more hoping that the players are being beasted and beasted in order to get them playing under extreme fatigue every game. They'll improve but we'll make a lot of mistakes. And then, suddenly, in the run-up to the WC we dial it right down, let the players rest and suddenly they're able to compete because they're used to playing absolutely knackered. Suddenly running on a full tank they're unbeatable...

Or is that wishful thinking?

Kind of like running with weights, once you take them off you're suddenly better than ever.

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
Are we even making progress, though? Launchbury is back but one less injury should not be that significant. Shields may be the real deal at 6 but so might Armand. Can Daly/Brown be the future this way round?

I just don't see the selection strategy for improvement. Beyond that, will our defence improve by the amount required? Finally, the first definition of management has to do with maximising resources available. Jones is miles away from that.

It's not just losing that is disappointing, it's the feeling that we could do a lot better, game on game.

Do you spontaneously combust if you write a post without mentioning Armand, Slade or Cipriani? I used to think the same about Hughes but you haven’t mentioned him in a while

If I stop being facetious, I think, yes, we are making progress but it’s progress that should’ve been in the AI’s. That progress is a proper backrow, George at hooker, Daly or Watson at fullback and a back/attack coach.

its one step forward- assume that one 20 minute attack swallow made a summer, and two back though- pathetic defence, poor discipline. You've missed scrum half and midfield out in terms of progressing.

All that said a fully fit and fresh team of

Mako
George
Williams/Cole
Launch
Itoje
Shields- lets see him at 6
Curry
Billy
Robson
Ford
Daly
Teo/Slade
JJ
May
Watson

LCD, Genge, Williams/Cole, Lawes, Simmonds, Care, Farrell, Wade/Nowell. Might be interesting- I'm sure I've missed someone out

Aye, he was shunt last week for sure. Absolute garbage.

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: Do you spontaneously combust if you write a post without mentioning Armand, Slade or Cipriani? I used to think the same about Hughes but you haven’t mentioned him in a while

If I stop being facetious, I think, yes, we are making progress but it’s progress that should’ve been in the AI’s. That progress is a proper backrow, George at hooker, Daly or Watson at fullback and a back/attack coach.

its one step forward- assume that one 20 minute attack swallow made a summer, and two back though- pathetic defence, poor discipline. You've missed scrum half and midfield out in terms of progressing.

All that said a fully fit and fresh team of

Mako
George
Williams/Cole
Launch
Itoje
Shields- lets see him at 6
Curry
Billy
Robson
Ford
Daly
Teo/Slade
JJ
May
Watson

LCD, Genge, Williams/Cole, Lawes, Simmonds, Care, Farrell, Wade/Nowell. Might be interesting- I'm sure I've missed someone out

Aye, he was shunt last week for sure. Absolute garbage.

I didn't mean Robshaw,Brown, Hartley, or Youngs. I meant some rising star.

Stom wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote: Agreed- though never underestimate the Boks at home (have they ever been whitewashed in a 3 or greater series?); and come the world cup, they will be a much better unit, subject to fitness (Eztebeth, Marx, Kriel etc).

Are we even making progress, though? Launchbury is back but one less injury should not be that significant. Shields may be the real deal at 6 but so might Armand. Can Daly/Brown be the future this way round?

I just don't see the selection strategy for improvement. Beyond that, will our defence improve by the amount required? Finally, the first definition of management has to do with maximising resources available. Jones is miles away from that.

It's not just losing that is disappointing, it's the feeling that we could do a lot better, game on game.

It's Launch. It's a huge thing. I think nearly all test teams would struggle losing 3 of their top 4 locks.

I'm more and more hoping that the players are being beasted and beasted in order to get them playing under extreme fatigue every game. They'll improve but we'll make a lot of mistakes. And then, suddenly, in the run-up to the WC we dial it right down, let the players rest and suddenly they're able to compete because they're used to playing absolutely knackered. Suddenly running on a full tank they're unbeatable...

Or is that wishful thinking?

Kind of like running with weights, once you take them off you're suddenly better than ever.

That's pretty much what I'm hoping for.

Raggs wrote:

Stom wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
Are we even making progress, though? Launchbury is back but one less injury should not be that significant. Shields may be the real deal at 6 but so might Armand. Can Daly/Brown be the future this way round?

I just don't see the selection strategy for improvement. Beyond that, will our defence improve by the amount required? Finally, the first definition of management has to do with maximising resources available. Jones is miles away from that.

It's not just losing that is disappointing, it's the feeling that we could do a lot better, game on game.

It's Launch. It's a huge thing. I think nearly all test teams would struggle losing 3 of their top 4 locks.

I'm more and more hoping that the players are being beasted and beasted in order to get them playing under extreme fatigue every game. They'll improve but we'll make a lot of mistakes. And then, suddenly, in the run-up to the WC we dial it right down, let the players rest and suddenly they're able to compete because they're used to playing absolutely knackered. Suddenly running on a full tank they're unbeatable...

Or is that wishful thinking?

Kind of like running with weights, once you take them off you're suddenly better than ever.

That's pretty much what I'm hoping for.

slightly high risk, especially as you'd expect a deal of churn in the squad. Plus its a leap of faith to know what confidence will be left by the end of this tour.

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
Are we even making progress, though? Launchbury is back but one less injury should not be that significant. Shields may be the real deal at 6 but so might Armand. Can Daly/Brown be the future this way round?

I just don't see the selection strategy for improvement. Beyond that, will our defence improve by the amount required? Finally, the first definition of management has to do with maximising resources available. Jones is miles away from that.

It's not just losing that is disappointing, it's the feeling that we could do a lot better, game on game.

Do you spontaneously combust if you write a post without mentioning Armand, Slade or Cipriani? I used to think the same about Hughes but you haven’t mentioned him in a while

If I stop being facetious, I think, yes, we are making progress but it’s progress that should’ve been in the AI’s. That progress is a proper backrow, George at hooker, Daly or Watson at fullback and a back/attack coach.

its one step forward- assume that one 20 minute attack swallow made a summer, and two back though- pathetic defence, poor discipline. You've missed scrum half and midfield out in terms of progressing.

All that said a fully fit and fresh team of

Mako
George
Williams/Cole
Launch
Itoje
Shields- lets see him at 6
Curry
Billy
Robson
Ford
Daly
Teo/Slade
JJ
May
Watson

LCD, Genge, Williams/Cole, Lawes, Simmonds, Care, Farrell, Wade/Nowell. Might be interesting- I'm sure I've missed someone out

Agreed on scrumhalf, just part of me had accepted it ain’t going to happen and the other part doesn’t think the alternatives would be a step up. Would be nice to find out, though. Same with the midfield. I’d like to see Ford - Teo/Tuilagi - Joseph but it just ain’t going to happen.
I’m hoping a settled side with our best players will solve silly pens and defence.

Banquo wrote:

Raggs wrote:

Stom wrote:
It's Launch. It's a huge thing. I think nearly all test teams would struggle losing 3 of their top 4 locks.

I'm more and more hoping that the players are being beasted and beasted in order to get them playing under extreme fatigue every game. They'll improve but we'll make a lot of mistakes. And then, suddenly, in the run-up to the WC we dial it right down, let the players rest and suddenly they're able to compete because they're used to playing absolutely knackered. Suddenly running on a full tank they're unbeatable...

Or is that wishful thinking?

Kind of like running with weights, once you take them off you're suddenly better than ever.

That's pretty much what I'm hoping for.

slightly high risk, especially as you'd expect a deal of churn in the squad. Plus its a leap of faith to know what confidence will be left by the end of this tour.

Definitely high risk, but with a long warmup before the world cup itself, you'd hope most players should be fit, and we have depth now in a number of positions. Most tier 1 squads in the last rwc had 3-4 locks, we have Launch, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes and Ewels/Isiekwe (ignoring the likes of Attwood). Backrow, Robshaw, Shields, Curry, Haskell, Hughes, Simmonds, Vunipola, Underhill (Maybe with a second Curry and Willis in competition by then too). Centres is the place that we look light, but I'd not be surprised if Jones, like others, is hoping Manu has a bit of luck with injuries, but even then, we have Farrell, Teo, Joseph, Daly and now arguably Slade.

If the players know they're being beasted, I think it will be less of a confidence dent than if they weren't, don't you? If they can finish within 3 points, despite being beasted, that's not bad. None of the 6N games were lost by huge margins in my mind either. It's not great, wins would be better than losses, but I think if the players know they aren't in best shape (and they would), then that would take quite a lot of the sting out.

EDIT - Looking at the rwc, 1 concern is Eddie only took 2 scrum halves .

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: Do you spontaneously combust if you write a post without mentioning Armand, Slade or Cipriani? I used to think the same about Hughes but you haven’t mentioned him in a while

If I stop being facetious, I think, yes, we are making progress but it’s progress that should’ve been in the AI’s. That progress is a proper backrow, George at hooker, Daly or Watson at fullback and a back/attack coach.

its one step forward- assume that one 20 minute attack swallow made a summer, and two back though- pathetic defence, poor discipline. You've missed scrum half and midfield out in terms of progressing.

All that said a fully fit and fresh team of

Mako
George
Williams/Cole
Launch
Itoje
Shields- lets see him at 6
Curry
Billy
Robson
Ford
Daly
Teo/Slade
JJ
May
Watson

LCD, Genge, Williams/Cole, Lawes, Simmonds, Care, Farrell, Wade/Nowell. Might be interesting- I'm sure I've missed someone out

Agreed on scrumhalf, just part of me had accepted it ain’t going to happen and the other part doesn’t think the alternatives would be a step up. Would be nice to find out, though. Same with the midfield. I’d like to see Ford - Teo/Tuilagi - Joseph but it just ain’t going to happen.
I’m hoping a settled side with our best players will solve silly pens and defence.

Manu, that's who I forgot!

Raggs wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Raggs wrote:
That's pretty much what I'm hoping for.

slightly high risk, especially as you'd expect a deal of churn in the squad. Plus its a leap of faith to know what confidence will be left by the end of this tour.

Definitely high risk, but with a long warmup before the world cup itself, you'd hope most players should be fit, and we have depth now in a number of positions. Most tier 1 squads in the last rwc had 3-4 locks, we have Launch, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes and Ewels/Isiekwe (ignoring the likes of Attwood). Backrow, Robshaw, Shields, Curry, Haskell, Hughes, Simmonds, Vunipola, Underhill (Maybe with a second Curry and Willis in competition by then too). Centres is the place that we look light, but I'd not be surprised if Jones, like others, is hoping Manu has a bit of luck with injuries, but even then, we have Farrell, Teo, Joseph, Daly and now arguably Slade.

If the players know they're being beasted, I think it will be less of a confidence dent than if they weren't, don't you? If they can finish within 3 points, despite being beasted, that's not bad. None of the 6N games were lost by huge margins in my mind either. It's not great, wins would be better than losses, but I think if the players know they aren't in best shape (and they would), then that would take quite a lot of the sting out.

EDIT - Looking at the rwc, 1 concern is Eddie only took 2 scrum halves .

yes, but still a leap of faith to have the self-belief collectively, even if you buy into 6N defeats= heavy legs theory, which i am sceptical about.

The pack looks all right, the bench is all over the place like a madman's shit. Keeping Brown on the wing is just being a stubborn dickhead.