RugbyRebels

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:59 pm**

Wheeling out poor old dan cole again. Do you reckon we will still need him in 4 years?

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:07 pm**

twitchy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:59 pm Wheeling out poor old dan cole again. Do you reckon we will still need him in 4 years?

Are you referencing a team announcement?

Have I missed something or have we not had our usual Mon/Tue team leak in the papers?

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:09 pm**

Ah. There we go.

England: Steward; May, Marchant, Tuilagi, Daly; Farrell (capt), Mitchell; Marler, George, Cole, Itoje, Martin, Lawes, Curry, Earl.

Replacements: Dan, Genge, Sinckler, Chessum, Vunipola, Care, Ford, Lawrence.

Sorry. Seems like I'd just jumped a page and everyone already saw this.

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:16 pm**

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:56 pm
francoisfou wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:42 pm No Youngs ……………… yet. Probably see him in the final
Well, he had a blinder in it four years ago so…

Maybe his nickname is “Peaky”?

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:20 pm**

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:54 pm Hell of a call on putting Martin in. I assume it's around the scrummaging power (which is always really hard to judge from the outside), but I suppose it could be because of his strong carrying. Still, it's a hell of a call to bring in a player with 6 caps (and the majority of those cameos off the bench at back row). After getting to the semi-final, I am allowing a very small, non-ironic, IBWT - that's the kind of call that we've just got to trust the setup on and it is the kind of manouevre he used to do for Leicester and be proven right on.

I think Martin is in there because he likes a tackle and the Boks have selected a side for a first half onslaught. Same for Marler, try and stop the Boks getting the upper hand in the first half or to big an upper hand. Second half last time out the Boks went into game management mode and England have stacked the bench with our most mobile props and lock. Suggesting we might look to up the tempo in the second half.

As you say that's a very Borthwick at Tigers style tactic that backs the team's fitness and ability to rough it out and wear down the opposition. Brave Vs the Boks.

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:21 pm**

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:41 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:25 pm Hoping the scrum can hang on for 50 minutes I suppose. Can't imagine we are going for much width with a pack containing Marler, Cole and Lawes (and George to some extent these days). Still with Lawrence on the bench, rather than the more logical back three player.
SB seems not prepared to bet on Tuilagi not breaking. Martin for Chessum is not too surprising based on the stats from the last match. I would always start with Marler and there is more logic to it if the team starts with Cole.

It is hard to be optimistic.

If Tuilagi breaks, Faz can go to 12, so no logic there tbh. Its not like Lawrence is an established 12.

That pack isnt mobile is it?

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:50 pm**

Cole, Tuilagi, Lawes survivors from Eng losing QF in 2011.

Youngs staying power not quite matching that of his pass, as he were thar too...
Wiggy doesn't count now he's off-pitch.

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:59 pm**

With Marler and Martin brought in are we just planning to tackle hard and not actually have the ball? It'll be interesting to see how SA react to that if that's the plan.

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 2:02 pm**

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:21 pm
Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:41 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:25 pm Hoping the scrum can hang on for 50 minutes I suppose. Can't imagine we are going for much width with a pack containing Marler, Cole and Lawes (and George to some extent these days). Still with Lawrence on the bench, rather than the more logical back three player.
SB seems not prepared to bet on Tuilagi not breaking. Martin for Chessum is not too surprising based on the stats from the last match. I would always start with Marler and there is more logic to it if the team starts with Cole.

It is hard to be optimistic.
If Tuilagi breaks, Faz can go to 12, so no logic there tbh. Its not like Lawrence is an established 12.

That pack isnt mobile is it?

SB wants the direct running threat in the midfield. Whether that's Manu and Lawrence or one and the other. If Manu were to go down injury and Farrell goes to 12 then you're looking Marchant or Steward coming from deep to offer themselves as the direct options to hold the Bok defence. Considering how well Danty managed to isolate one defender and make yards as the Boks Blitz tended to number up instead of doubling up a strong centre is probably a must for our very slim chances.

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 2:13 pm**

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:59 pm With Marler and Martin brought in are we just planning to tackle hard and not actually have the ball? It'll be interesting to see how SA react to that if that's the plan.

I mean, it's not a terrible plan and probably one of our few routes to victory. My concern is about the tackling hard bit of it. We've tended to react to big runners this tournament by giving them a bit of an upright hug to target the ball and getting carried backwards. Need to put in some (legal) low tackles to chop down at source, as the likes of Vermeulen will not be stopped by the upright hug technique.

Puja

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 2:38 pm**

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 2:13 pm
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:59 pm With Marler and Martin brought in are we just planning to tackle hard and not actually have the ball? It'll be interesting to see how SA react to that if that's the plan.
I mean, it's not a terrible plan and probably a route to victory. My concern is about the tackling hard bit of it. We've tended to react to big runners this tournament by giving them a bit of an upright hug to target the ball and getting carried backwards. Need to put in some (legal) low tackles to chop down at source, as the likes of Vermeulen will not be stopped by the upright hug technique.

Puja

I'm more hopeful of the double tackle, drive them back approach that Tigers adopted under Sinfield.

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 2:40 pm**

Sinckler’s gonna get Nche’d. I’ll be behind the sofa. It prob won’t matter by then anyway.

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 3:12 pm**

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 2:02 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:21 pm
Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:41 pm

SB seems not prepared to bet on Tuilagi not breaking. Martin for Chessum is not too surprising based on the stats from the last match. I would always start with Marler and there is more logic to it if the team starts with Cole.

It is hard to be optimistic.
If Tuilagi breaks, Faz can go to 12, so no logic there tbh. Its not like Lawrence is an established 12.

That pack isnt mobile is it?
SB wants the direct running threat in the midfield. Whether that's Manu and Lawrence or one and the other. If Manu were to go down injury and Farrell goes to 12 then you're looking Marchant or Steward coming from deep to offer themselves as the direct options to hold the Bok defence. Considering how well Danty managed to isolate one defender and make yards as the Boks Blitz tended to number up instead of doubling up a strong centre is probably a must for our very slim chances.

On the other hand if a back three player gets hurt, a la Smith last week, fair bit of shuffling to do. Danty made 16 yards btw from 12 carries

. Lawrence isn’t quite in his class either, nor is much of a 12 yet. Plus if hard carrying plan a doesn’t work, what do you then do?

Double down on hard carrying vs chunky disruption to the back three I guess vs Plan b and go outside the blitz (and in fairness, the boks varied their defence quite a bit v France, not blitzing a few times iirc- the commentators even spotted it; Saffers tactics, and tactical subs were very good after the first 30 mins or so).

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 4:39 pm**

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 3:12 pm
FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 2:02 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:21 pm

If Tuilagi breaks, Faz can go to 12, so no logic there tbh. Its not like Lawrence is an established 12.

That pack isnt mobile is it?
SB wants the direct running threat in the midfield. Whether that's Manu and Lawrence or one and the other. If Manu were to go down injury and Farrell goes to 12 then you're looking Marchant or Steward coming from deep to offer themselves as the direct options to hold the Bok defence. Considering how well Danty managed to isolate one defender and make yards as the Boks Blitz tended to number up instead of doubling up a strong centre is probably a must for our very slim chances.
On the other hand if a back three player gets hurt, a la Smith last week, fair bit of shuffling to do. Danty made 16 yards btw from 12 carries . Lawrence isn’t quite in his class either, nor is much of a 12 yet. Plus if hard carrying plan a doesn’t work, what do you then do?

Double down on hard carrying vs chunky disruption to the back three I guess vs Plan b and go outside the blitz (and in fairness, the boks varied their defence quite a bit v France, not blitzing a few times iirc- the commentators even spotted it; Saffers tactics, and tactical subs were very good after the first 30 mins or so).

Yep. You will be playing their coach as well as squad. I'm not sure Suspended Belief has a cunning plan over and above paint by numbers. Prepared to be wrong but.

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 4:59 pm**

morepork wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 4:39 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 3:12 pm
FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 2:02 pm

SB wants the direct running threat in the midfield. Whether that's Manu and Lawrence or one and the other. If Manu were to go down injury and Farrell goes to 12 then you're looking Marchant or Steward coming from deep to offer themselves as the direct options to hold the Bok defence. Considering how well Danty managed to isolate one defender and make yards as the Boks Blitz tended to number up instead of doubling up a strong centre is probably a must for our very slim chances.
On the other hand if a back three player gets hurt, a la Smith last week, fair bit of shuffling to do. Danty made 16 yards btw from 12 carries . Lawrence isn’t quite in his class either, nor is much of a 12 yet. Plus if hard carrying plan a doesn’t work, what do you then do?

Double down on hard carrying vs chunky disruption to the back three I guess vs Plan b and go outside the blitz (and in fairness, the boks varied their defence quite a bit v France, not blitzing a few times iirc- the commentators even spotted it; Saffers tactics, and tactical subs were very good after the first 30 mins or so).
Yep. You will be playing their coach as well as squad. I'm not sure Suspended Belief has a cunning plan over and above paint by numbers. Prepared to be wrong but.

Yep, they played a tactical blinder 2nd half v France. I thought their subbing was mad, but proved to be a turning point, as well as changing their game.

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:35 pm**

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 4:59 pm
morepork wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 4:39 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 3:12 pm

On the other hand if a back three player gets hurt, a la Smith last week, fair bit of shuffling to do. Danty made 16 yards btw from 12 carries . Lawrence isn’t quite in his class either, nor is much of a 12 yet. Plus if hard carrying plan a doesn’t work, what do you then do?

Double down on hard carrying vs chunky disruption to the back three I guess vs Plan b and go outside the blitz (and in fairness, the boks varied their defence quite a bit v France, not blitzing a few times iirc- the commentators even spotted it; Saffers tactics, and tactical subs were very good after the first 30 mins or so).
Yep. You will be playing their coach as well as squad. I'm not sure Suspended Belief has a cunning plan over and above paint by numbers. Prepared to be wrong but.
Yep, they played a tactical blinder 2nd half v France. I thought their subbing was mad, but proved to be a turning point, as well as changing their game.

Like him or love him, Rassie is a crafty sod, a strong motivator for his team and an effective coach. Don't be surprised if he has something novel up his sleeve for this game, such as running the ball much more than expected, and from deep positions. SA would be daft not to optimize the attacking threat of their outstanding wings. Also - deAllende and Kriel are proving to be a bit of a handful in the centre. DDA is an established force but Kriel seems to have reinvented himself, adding power, determination and dog to his gas, both in attack and defence.

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:37 pm**

Spiffy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:35 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 4:59 pm
morepork wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 4:39 pm

Yep. You will be playing their coach as well as squad. I'm not sure Suspended Belief has a cunning plan over and above paint by numbers. Prepared to be wrong but.
Yep, they played a tactical blinder 2nd half v France. I thought their subbing was mad, but proved to be a turning point, as well as changing their game.

Like him or love him, Rassie is a crafty sod, a strong motivator for his team and an effective coach. Don't be surprised if he has something novel up his sleeve for this game, such as running the ball much more than expected, and from deep positions. SA would be daft not to optimize the attacking threat of their outstanding wings. Also - deAllende and Kriel are proving to be a bit of a handful in the centre. DDA is an established force but Kriel seems to have reinvented himself, adding power, determination and dog to his gas, both in attack and defence.

Always rated Kriel- that's a great combo imo. Not a second playmaker amongst them

(I posted this in 2016 (mikey will love it) 'and if Kriel and De Allende can sort their defence they could be a great pair of centres')

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:39 pm**

Just thinking about our bench impact, I wish Dan had been given significant minutes in earlier games, especially v Fiji. Mobility in the loose from a full, fresh front row could be worth having.

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:40 pm**

Insouciant wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:10 pm https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67154379

England: Steward; May, Marchant, Tuilagi, Daly; Farrell (capt), Mitchell; Marler, George, Cole, Itoje, Martin, Lawes, Curry, Earl.

Replacements: Dan, Genge, Sinckler, Chessum, Vunipola, Care, Ford, Lawrence.

Changes
Steward into the first XV, Smith drops out entirely
Marler starts in place of Genge
Martin comes in for Chessum

No Underhill in 23 yet a past it Billy - go figure?

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:42 pm**

jngf wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:40 pm
Insouciant wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:10 pm https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67154379

England: Steward; May, Marchant, Tuilagi, Daly; Farrell (capt), Mitchell; Marler, George, Cole, Itoje, Martin, Lawes, Curry, Earl.

Replacements: Dan, Genge, Sinckler, Chessum, Vunipola, Care, Ford, Lawrence.

Changes
Steward into the first XV, Smith drops out entirely
Marler starts in place of Genge
Martin comes in for Chessum
No Underhill in 23 yet a past it Billy - go figure?

once again, when did Underhill last play? Genuine q

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:45 pm**

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:42 pm
jngf wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:40 pm
Insouciant wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:10 pm https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67154379

England: Steward; May, Marchant, Tuilagi, Daly; Farrell (capt), Mitchell; Marler, George, Cole, Itoje, Martin, Lawes, Curry, Earl.

Replacements: Dan, Genge, Sinckler, Chessum, Vunipola, Care, Ford, Lawrence.

Changes
Steward into the first XV, Smith drops out entirely
Marler starts in place of Genge
Martin comes in for Chessum
No Underhill in 23 yet a past it Billy - go figure?
once again, when did Underhill last play? Genuine q

When did Billy last have any carrying impact? ….other than carrying an outsize BMI

Sugar Baby has really Frank Spencered up the No.8 selection for this competition and seems a bit too “nice” to drop anyone. I was no fan of the Grumpy Turnip’s counterproductive mind games but he was prepared to be ruthless on selection if needed.

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:56 pm**

Rumour has it Sweeney’s been sounding out new candidate for England head coach in the ahem….unlikely event of a Borthwick-Farrell lead 6 Nations disaster

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 6:01 pm**

Not convinced this will make for comfortable viewing.

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 6:04 pm**

jngf wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:40 pm
Insouciant wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:10 pm https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67154379

England: Steward; May, Marchant, Tuilagi, Daly; Farrell (capt), Mitchell; Marler, George, Cole, Itoje, Martin, Lawes, Curry, Earl.

Replacements: Dan, Genge, Sinckler, Chessum, Vunipola, Care, Ford, Lawrence.

Changes
Steward into the first XV, Smith drops out entirely
Marler starts in place of Genge
Martin comes in for Chessum
No Underhill in 23 yet a past it Billy - go figure?

I could understand (just) Big Billy getting a start purely for bulk (and little else) against the Boks. But an impact bencher he is not. Little Kwagga Smith will dance around him for fun.

Posted: **Thu Oct 19, 2023 6:09 pm**

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:37 pm
Spiffy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:35 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 4:59 pm
Yep, they played a tactical blinder 2nd half v France. I thought their subbing was mad, but proved to be a turning point, as well as changing their game.

Like him or love him, Rassie is a crafty sod, a strong motivator for his team and an effective coach. Don't be surprised if he has something novel up his sleeve for this game, such as running the ball much more than expected, and from deep positions. SA would be daft not to optimize the attacking threat of their outstanding wings. Also - deAllende and Kriel are proving to be a bit of a handful in the centre. DDA is an established force but Kriel seems to have reinvented himself, adding power, determination and dog to his gas, both in attack and defence.
Always rated Kriel- that's a great combo imo. Not a second playmaker amongst them

(I posted this in 2016 (mikey will love it) 'and if Kriel and De Allende can sort their defence they could be a great pair of centres')

Re. backs : I don't think there is an English back from 9-15 who is better than his SA counterpart. Even Libbok, who can be flaky (but is becoming less so), shades it over the laboured Faz for his attacking attitude, gas, flair and natural skills.

RugbyRebels

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