RugbyRebels

Mikey Brown wrote:I’m still confused how we have a literal clone of one our truly world class players and don’t seem interested in developing him.

Is there really some enormous gulf between Tom and Ben (beyond the development done with England, which is obviously a huge amount at this point) that means it not worth a shot? I like both Evans and Ludlow but it feels like Ben Curry is almost being forgotten about just because Tom has progressed so much further/quicker.

Raggs wrote:I know a pair of genetically identical twins, and they are very different people. Ben looks like the more skillful pacy player, Tom looks the more physical. I have no doubt that they push each other hard, but mentally (and that's where the difference is), there's obviously a gap between them.

Ben is more how Jngf would like our 7 to be i suspect, Tom is more fitting with the realities of international backrow play I feel. I mostly noticed it when doing ruck marks here and there. Ben just doesn't dominate in quite the same way. He's a fantastic player, and I'd not be upset to have him join Wasps in the slightest, but just don't think he's there for international. The English Tipuric (but not as good I feel).

Banquo wrote:

Raggs wrote:I know a pair of genetically identical twins, and they are very different people. Ben looks like the more skillful pacy player, Tom looks the more physical. I have no doubt that they push each other hard, but mentally (and that's where the difference is), there's obviously a gap between them.

Ben is more how Jngf would like our 7 to be i suspect, Tom is more fitting with the realities of international backrow play I feel. I mostly noticed it when doing ruck marks here and there. Ben just doesn't dominate in quite the same way. He's a fantastic player, and I'd not be upset to have him join Wasps in the slightest, but just don't think he's there for international. The English Tipuric (but not as good I feel).

Tom has definitely been piling on the muscle though.

Puja wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I’m still confused how we have a literal clone of one our truly world class players and don’t seem interested in developing him.

Is there really some enormous gulf between Tom and Ben (beyond the development done with England, which is obviously a huge amount at this point) that means it not worth a shot? I like both Evans and Ludlow but it feels like Ben Curry is almost being forgotten about just because Tom has progressed so much further/quicker.

I had literally forgotten about him when it came to this tour. I'm with you on your bafflement at him being ignored.

Puja

Raggs wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Raggs wrote:I know a pair of genetically identical twins, and they are very different people. Ben looks like the more skillful pacy player, Tom looks the more physical. I have no doubt that they push each other hard, but mentally (and that's where the difference is), there's obviously a gap between them.

Ben is more how Jngf would like our 7 to be i suspect, Tom is more fitting with the realities of international backrow play I feel. I mostly noticed it when doing ruck marks here and there. Ben just doesn't dominate in quite the same way. He's a fantastic player, and I'd not be upset to have him join Wasps in the slightest, but just don't think he's there for international. The English Tipuric (but not as good I feel).

Tom has definitely been piling on the muscle though.

Absolutely. He needed to. Against south Africa he was right on the edge, now he's right at the top. Brilliant attitude combined with good solid build.

Raggs wrote:I thought he went well.

Scrumhead wrote:

Puja wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I’m still confused how we have a literal clone of one our truly world class players and don’t seem interested in developing him.

Is there really some enormous gulf between Tom and Ben (beyond the development done with England, which is obviously a huge amount at this point) that means it not worth a shot? I like both Evans and Ludlow but it feels like Ben Curry is almost being forgotten about just because Tom has progressed so much further/quicker.

I had literally forgotten about him when it came to this tour. I'm with you on your bafflement at him being ignored.

Puja

It’s not that baffling when he’s been injured for most of this season.

Prior to that, I think Eddie has preferred the versatility of Ludlam or the pace/dynamism of Earl which is fair enough. Both are very good players.

Dan. Dan. Dan. wrote:Been thinking about the will they won't they (I'm sure they will, in some form) tour.
Who do we want to see in the squad?
Who do we think Gatland will not take?

I really hope Ford goes with the Lions, because a) he deserves it as the best B&I fly half and b) I'd really like a look at Smith, Simmonds and, to a lesser extent Umaga.
I'd also really like Billy V to go. He doesn't deserve it, but I think both Simmonds and Dombrandt need a bit of time with Eddie to see how they can fit in.
I'm pretty convinced Gatland will take Billy and not Ford.

Second row will be interesting as apart from Itoje, not sure anyone will go. Lawes is a Gat favourite, and Launchbury is/was in great form. It'll be interesting whoever goes or not as post-Kruis there's a bit of a gap for backup lock. Do we think Martin's future is there? Is Ewels as good as his performance against France? Do we give up on Hill? Isiekwe? Ribbans?

I think both George and Cowan-Dickie will be with the Lions. Will Dunn get more than 1 minute? Who else is there? Will Barbeary be thrown into the front row (surely not!)? Props I think are pretty set with Genge/Obano and Stuart/West/Williams but where will Marler be?

I reckon Youngs would have gone whether or not for his recent purple patch. Will Robson just step in? Or will we have a look at Randall and Mitchell?

I can't imagine Slade going with the Lions, but who knows? If he does surely Lawrence gets some time? I cam definitely see Umaga getting some time at 12 either way.

Back three there's loads of options with or without Daly (as with Billy I hope Daly is picked despite not really deserving it). Malins is surely odds on to solidify his position at 15 but can we also have a look at Steward & Parton? I reckon Odogwu will be seen as a winger exclusively. Who else? Thorley? Cokanisiga? Hassell-Collins? McConnochie?

jngf wrote:
I would question that Billy merits Lions selection.For me Falatau’s an altogether better no.8 with Billy’s only point of difference being the battering ram stuff (and he’s not as penetrative in this facet nowadays). I would take Stander as a backup 6 cum 8 and Sam Simmonds as a 6,7,8 depending on balance (and noting that the two locks and small dynamic 8 is a pattern the boks have used themselves, certainly at provisional level e.g. Brosseow played at 8 for Cheetars on last Lions tour to SA)

FKAS wrote:Jack Conan the Irish 8 is a quality option now he's back for again. Played well Vs England at the weekend. Wouldn't be surprised to see him tour. He can carry hard and jumps in the lineout. At 6ft 4 he could be the third jumper that then allows two more mobile 7s is the tactics go that way. Having said that both Tipuric and Curry can jump in the lineout it's only Watson that isn't an option for that though I'd start Watson if it was my choice.

Digby wrote:

jngf wrote:
I would question that Billy merits Lions selection.For me Falatau’s an altogether better no.8 with Billy’s only point of difference being the battering ram stuff (and he’s not as penetrative in this facet nowadays). I would take Stander as a backup 6 cum 8 and Sam Simmonds as a 6,7,8 depending on balance (and noting that the two locks and small dynamic 8 is a pattern the boks have used themselves, certainly at provisional level e.g. Brosseow played at 8 for Cheetars on last Lions tour to SA)

So think about doing something a minor side in SA did 12 years ago a little bit?

jngf wrote:

Digby wrote:

jngf wrote:
I would question that Billy merits Lions selection.For me Falatau’s an altogether better no.8 with Billy’s only point of difference being the battering ram stuff (and he’s not as penetrative in this facet nowadays). I would take Stander as a backup 6 cum 8 and Sam Simmonds as a 6,7,8 depending on balance (and noting that the two locks and small dynamic 8 is a pattern the boks have used themselves, certainly at provisional level e.g. Brosseow played at 8 for Cheetars on last Lions tour to SA)

So think about doing something a minor side in SA did 12 years ago a little bit?

Think you’re overlooking Ellis, Greyling and Bedford - arguably the best SA loose forward trio of all time

Timbo wrote:

FKAS wrote:Jack Conan the Irish 8 is a quality option now he's back for again. Played well Vs England at the weekend. Wouldn't be surprised to see him tour. He can carry hard and jumps in the lineout. At 6ft 4 he could be the third jumper that then allows two more mobile 7s is the tactics go that way. Having said that both Tipuric and Curry can jump in the lineout it's only Watson that isn't an option for that though I'd start Watson if it was my choice.

That was probably Conan’s best game for 3 years and literally his one and only really top drawer international performance. He’s a very decent player, but making a Lions tour basically off the back of 1 game would be incredibly fortunate.

Spiffy wrote:

Timbo wrote:

FKAS wrote:Jack Conan the Irish 8 is a quality option now he's back for again. Played well Vs England at the weekend. Wouldn't be surprised to see him tour. He can carry hard and jumps in the lineout. At 6ft 4 he could be the third jumper that then allows two more mobile 7s is the tactics go that way. Having said that both Tipuric and Curry can jump in the lineout it's only Watson that isn't an option for that though I'd start Watson if it was my choice.

That was probably Conan’s best game for 3 years and literally his one and only really top drawer international performance. He’s a very decent player, but making a Lions tour basically off the back of 1 game would be incredibly fortunate.

Conan is not that highly rated in Ireland. With players like Doris, Max Deegan, Leavy, Connors all fit he would be hard pushed to gain a starting slot with Leinster, never mind Ireland. But fair play, he did have a good game against England.

The next big name in the Irish back row roster is Gavin Coombes - a massive lad of around 6'6" who can play 6, 8 or even lock. Has power, hands and rugby intelligence, has been playing his socks off all season and scoring a lot of tries for Munster. He will play for Ireland sooner than later. Can't wait to see a back row of Coombes/Doris/Leavy. Another to watch, Leinster's Scott Penny, a compact powerhouse of a flanker in the Hamish Watson mode who could edge out VDF before too long. Watch for those names - you'll see them soon.

Digby wrote:

jngf wrote:

Digby wrote:
So think about doing something a minor side in SA did 12 years ago a little bit?

Think you’re overlooking Ellis, Greyling and Bedford - arguably the best SA loose forward trio of all time

Overlooking in the sense I've no idea about them sure. Which might suggest they're from an era that doesn't in all ways translate to the present reality

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:

jngf wrote:
Think you’re overlooking Ellis, Greyling and Bedford - arguably the best SA loose forward trio of all time

Overlooking in the sense I've no idea about them sure. Which might suggest they're from an era that doesn't in all ways translate to the present reality

I remember them, and of their time they were excellent. But as you say pretty irrelevent to any debate today, their peak was about 50 years ago.

fivepointer wrote:Its USA, Canada and Scotland in June. The tour should be all about development.
Irrespective of who goes on the Jamboree, we should looking to leave most of the current squad at home, along with a few others who are injured.
Make Ewels captain, include Malins, Odogwu, Marchant, Lawrence, Obano, Martin, Ribbans and Earl from the current 6Ns squad. Add in Smith, J Simmonds, Dombrandt, Randall, Dunn, Hill, Barbeary, Heyes, Thorley plus a smattering of form youngsters.