RugbyRebels

Adam_P wrote:I think 9 would be my major priority for getting some of the high quality youngsters in - we involved Robson far too late and I think we're best forgetting him, he's never going to be starting 9. Get Mitchell and Randall both in as starter/bench for the summer.

I'd look at Tom James too- impressed with him.

I think this summer is the classic case of the need to raise money over riding the fact we'd probably be better off giving a lot of players the summer off.

The Argentina tour during the last Lions was actually useful, but looking at the itinerary for this time around its genuinely all a bit pointless, beyond possible time in camp for some new players, which as we've seen so far can be a bit of a revolving door with Eddie anyway.

As far as I understand it we have an A game against Scotland weekend of 26 June, then USA on 3 JUly. Is that it, or do we have another game lined up?

16th man wrote:I think this summer is the classic case of the need to raise money over riding the fact we'd probably be better off giving a lot of players the summer off.

The Argentina tour during the last Lions was actually useful, but looking at the itinerary for this time around its genuinely all a bit pointless, beyond possible time in camp for some new players, which as we've seen so far can be a bit of a revolving door with Eddie anyway.

That tour showed how good Ford was in his ability to boss a game in the absence of the ponderous Farrell breathing down his neck. But it made no difference to the subsequent Jones selections or game plan.

16th man wrote:I think this summer is the classic case of the need to raise money over riding the fact we'd probably be better off giving a lot of players the summer off.

Same for the USA actually - the tests have been placed right at the culmination of the regular season of their league. I don't know whether that means a weakened USA team or the MLR clubs having to field weakened sides for three weeks, but it's gonna be rubbish every which way. Don't see the point in the game myself - far better to bung the US an AI game instead.

Puja

16th man wrote:I think this summer is the classic case of the need to raise money over riding the fact we'd probably be better off giving a lot of players the summer off.

The Argentina tour during the last Lions was actually useful, but looking at the itinerary for this time around its genuinely all a bit pointless, beyond possible time in camp for some new players, which as we've seen so far can be a bit of a revolving door with Eddie anyway.

Professional sport in needing money shock.

Regardless of the quality of the opposition, I think we can still take some value from working on our attacking structure and blooding some much needed alternatives in certain positions.

Against Scotland A, I’d like to see a 23 something like:

1. B. Obano
2. T. Dunn
3. W. Stuart
4. D. Ribbans
5. C. Ewels (c)
6. T. Hill or N. Isiekwe
7. B. Curry (if fit) or L. Ludlam
8. A. Dombrandt
9. H. Randall
10. M. Smith
11. O. Hassell-Collins
12. P. O’Conor
13. J. Marchant
14. P. Odogwu
15. F. Steward

16. J. Singleton
17. T. West or B. Rodd
18. J. Heyes
19. G. Martin
20. A. Barbeary
21. A. Mitchell
22. J. Simmonds
23. O. Sleightholme

Ewels is captain by virtue of his club duties and being the most experienced test player in the side.

Beyond that, most of those are uncapped or have a handful.

Against USA, I’d look at something pretty similar with maybe Malins and Cokanasiga coming in to the back three and making sure to capture Rodd and Heyes.

I really like the look of that side. Sure it would be nice to integrate these guys more gradually alongside first choice players, but I don't think that's a luxury that's really available with so many deserving of a rest.

Dombrandt has come on massively as a player and really keen to see if he can bring that in a different side that isn't built so heavily around him.

Yup, get them familiar with some of the calls and see if new possibilities present themselves.

Mikey Brown wrote:I really like the look of that side. Sure it would be nice to integrate these guys more gradually alongside first choice players, but I don't think that's a luxury that's really available with so many deserving of a rest.

Dombrandt has come on massively as a player and really keen to see if he can bring that in a different side that isn't built so heavily around him.

Thanks.

Re. The bolded section, I don’t actually think that’s the case anymore.

In Dombrandt’s first season, Robshaw and Clifford did pretty much all of the grunt work. While our 6 and 7 still do more work at the breakdown, Dombrandt isn’t the luxury player he was back then. I genuinely think his dip in form last season coincided with him trying to find a way to marry his natural game with a higher work rate. He’s done that and come out the other side IMO.

Scrumhead wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I really like the look of that side. Sure it would be nice to integrate these guys more gradually alongside first choice players, but I don't think that's a luxury that's really available with so many deserving of a rest.

Dombrandt has come on massively as a player and really keen to see if he can bring that in a different side that isn't built so heavily around him.

Thanks.

Re. The bolded section, I don’t actually think that’s the case anymore.

In Dombrandt’s first season, Robshaw and Clifford did pretty much all of the grunt work. While our 6 and 7 still do more work at the breakdown, Dombrandt isn’t the luxury player he was back then. I genuinely think his dip in form last season coincided with him trying to find a way to marry his natural game with a higher work rate. He’s done that and come out the other side IMO.

I didn’t mean so much making up for his deficiencies, but he’s basically the focal point of our whole attack. There are so many fantastic options for England at flanker that I think would compliment his attacking game though.

BREAKING: England have announced their summer schedule.

USA, July 4th, Twickenham
Canada, July 10th, Twickenham

PLUS
England ‘A’ vs Scotland ‘A’ on June 27th at Mattioli Woods Welford Road

So do we actually need to pick from a different squad for that game? I don’t understand what defines it as an A game, or is it simply uncapped?

Is there a Barbarians fixture? If not, I suspect the ‘A’ squad would basically replace that?

But there’s no restrictions on who you select vs Barbarians, while surely there is for an A game?

It would seem odd to see the same guys play one week as the Saxons and the next week as England, but equally it seems weird to have to jump to 3rd choice players because the first team is away/rested, making many second choice guys the first XV? Maybe that’s no different to usual. I guess Scotland will be in the same position. And both fighting to cap some of the same players.

If we're fighting to cap players to play for the A side whilst there's a Lions tour removing a number of senior players from the normal EPS I'd suggest stop fighting, they're not likely to be worth much of anything.

Hmm. Fascinating logic. Maybe you’re right.

Pick a 46 man training squad/bubble. The 23 that aren't going to play in the two full tests play the 'a' game. That assumes there are no agreements about X number of young players etc.

It's entirely probable that neither Scotland nor England fancied the loss of cachet/ranking points/risking the Calcutta Cup of making it a full test with weakened teams. Whereas we don't expect even our A side to lose to USA or Canada (although history says Scotland should be wary of such hubris) and so we don't mind making those full tests.

Puja

Absent of any knowledge (not sure I'm suddenly making such declaration) I'd assume one or both sides are on the cusp for the number of permitted games, and one that perhaps would see them needing to make further funding payments, or that they want to be able to show they do use their A sides like good honest rugby nations

Decent logic, but last tour we played Argentina away, which was far more fearsome than Scotland at the time, and had no hangups about throwing newbies in. One of my favourite tours of the last decade tbh.

Digby wrote:If we're fighting to cap players to play for the A side whilst there's a Lions tour removing a number of senior players from the normal EPS I'd suggest stop fighting, they're not likely to be worth much of anything.

I disagree. After losing Redpath and Williams recently despite them being part of our age grade set up and even in our wider England squad, I think we need to make opportunities to capture promising players count.

I’m not talking about capturing players just because ...

I genuinely believe Rodd, Heyes, Randall and Odogwu are all good enough and young enough to be England internationals. Why lose them to other nations who have played little, or in most cases, no part in their development?

Scrumhead wrote:

Digby wrote:If we're fighting to cap players to play for the A side whilst there's a Lions tour removing a number of senior players from the normal EPS I'd suggest stop fighting, they're not likely to be worth much of anything.

I disagree. After losing Redpath and Williams recently despite them being part of our age grade set up and even in our wider England squad, I think we need to make opportunities to capture promising players count.

I’m not talking about capturing players just because ...

I genuinely believe Rodd, Heyes, Randall and Odogwu are all good enough and young enough to be England internationals. Why lose them to other nations who have played little, or in most cases, no part in their development?

I would agree we missed out on Redpath, a player though who'd have warranted interest in the full EPS whilst all players were available. Whereas if we're arguing who to select in a minor interest game against the local Dog and Duck XIV (Colin couldn't make it) then maybe we're not looking at the same standard of player

If those players are good enough (and can be bothered, yes we're looking at you Odogwu) then pick 'em for the full side. If they're not playing seniors rugby with players missing for the Lions and just for rest whilst we're up for some fixtures against a rank bad side and a worse one in Canada they're ranked somewhere outside the top 40 players, if they don't think they can bridge that gap I'm not sold they can either

Digby wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:

Digby wrote:If we're fighting to cap players to play for the A side whilst there's a Lions tour removing a number of senior players from the normal EPS I'd suggest stop fighting, they're not likely to be worth much of anything.

I disagree. After losing Redpath and Williams recently despite them being part of our age grade set up and even in our wider England squad, I think we need to make opportunities to capture promising players count.

I’m not talking about capturing players just because ...

I genuinely believe Rodd, Heyes, Randall and Odogwu are all good enough and young enough to be England internationals. Why lose them to other nations who have played little, or in most cases, no part in their development?

I would agree we missed out on Redpath, a player though who'd have warranted interest in the full EPS whilst all players were available. Whereas if we're arguing who to select in a minor interest game against the local Dog and Duck XIV (Colin couldn't make it) then maybe we're not looking at the same standard of player

If those players are good enough (and can be bothered, yes we're looking at you Odogwu) then pick 'em for the full side. If they're not playing seniors rugby with players missing for the Lions and just for rest whilst we're up for some fixtures against a rank bad side and a worse one in Canada they're ranked somewhere outside the top 40 players, if they don't think they can bridge that gap I'm not sold they can either

Thoroughly disagree. Because of our depth of playing resources and the occasional thinness of that of our Celtic neighbours, there are many occasions where a player is not yet suitable for England but the Celts will have them away on general principles. Looking at this current tour, Bevan Rodd is an excellent example - he's 20 years old, this is his breakthrough season, and even with the Lions away, he is behind Genge, Obano, and probably West. That doesn't mean we should chuck him out on the scrapheap of "Never will be" - he's 20 years old and could develop in any direction! However, if we don't pick him, then the Scots will certainly nick him.

Puja

Exactly - that’s what I was getting at when I said ‘young enough’. Rodd not being ready today doesn’t mean he won’t be soon enough and with the vultures circling, we’d be silly to lose this opportunity to capture him (he should be ours anyway).

Same goes for Heyes. He’s unlikely to be picked ahead of Sinckler and Stuart right this second, but he’s looking increasingly good and should definitely be in consideration for the 3rd choice tighthead berth. I’d be looking to pick him for the A game and then give him time for the bench vs. USA and/or Canada.

We’re also rumoured to be looking at Ewan Ashman. That’s slightly more controversial given that he’s played age grade rugby for Scotland, but that’s countered by the fact that he’s got an English parent and spent more or less his whole life (and formative rugby development) in England.

I’m not suggesting we cap players just to stop others from doing it. I genuinely think the four I mentioned will be England players - in some cases sooner rather than later.