RugbyRebels

jngf wrote:Noticed that this is levelled in the context of the backs - I am assuming it crops up far less in the forwards and players are encouraged into positions determined by their size body shape and height, physical strength, degree of explosive power, degree of jumping ability, handling skills, speed, defensive technique and for the forwards there’s not a stereotype in the manner of player x has certain race/ethnicity so stick them on the wing?

I actually remember having this conversation with someone, many years ago, about why there were no black forwards in England. Before around 2008, the only black players tended to be wingers, maybe because of a latent racist stereotype about sprinters idk? It only really changed with Lawes onwards - we had an all black back 3 at one point, but no black forwards.

I don't know what's seen as the most cerebral forwards position and whether players are directed away from that. Openside, maybe?

Puja

Puja wrote:

jngf wrote:Noticed that this is levelled in the context of the backs - I am assuming it crops up far less in the forwards and players are encouraged into positions determined by their size body shape and height, physical strength, degree of explosive power, degree of jumping ability, handling skills, speed, defensive technique and for the forwards there’s not a stereotype in the manner of player x has certain race/ethnicity so stick them on the wing?

I actually remember having this conversation with someone, many years ago, about why there were no black forwards in England. Before around 2008, the only black players tended to be wingers, maybe because of a latent racist stereotype about sprinters idk? It only really changed with Lawes onwards - we had an all black back 3 at one point, but no black forwards.

I don't know what's seen as the most cerebral forwards position and whether players are directed away from that. Openside, maybe?

Puja

Victor Ubogu (Prop) and Steve Ojomoh (No8, BSF, OSF) were big part of Late Cooke then Jack Rowell squad of early to mid 90s. In fact arguably the two most talented forwards of that era in their respective positions - certainly believe Ojomoh had overtaken Deano as a no.8 by about 94/95

jngf wrote:

Puja wrote:

jngf wrote:Noticed that this is levelled in the context of the backs - I am assuming it crops up far less in the forwards and players are encouraged into positions determined by their size body shape and height, physical strength, degree of explosive power, degree of jumping ability, handling skills, speed, defensive technique and for the forwards there’s not a stereotype in the manner of player x has certain race/ethnicity so stick them on the wing?

I actually remember having this conversation with someone, many years ago, about why there were no black forwards in England. Before around 2008, the only black players tended to be wingers, maybe because of a latent racist stereotype about sprinters idk? It only really changed with Lawes onwards - we had an all black back 3 at one point, but no black forwards.

I don't know what's seen as the most cerebral forwards position and whether players are directed away from that. Openside, maybe?

Puja

Victor Ubogu (Prop) and Steve Ojomoh (No8, BSF, OSF) were big part of Late Cooke then Jack Rowell squad of early to mid 90s. In fact arguably the two most talented forwards of that era in their respective positions - certainly believe Ojomoh had overtaken Deano as a no.8 by about 94/95

Good point, well made - I shall get a ticking off for being factually incorrect. I knew there were people I was missing. Were there any before that? Certainly there was a gap between them retiring 98ish and Lawes getting capped around 2009 (and then remaining pretty much the only representative in the England pack for a good number of years, aside from the occasional SArmitage cameo), while wingers included Adebayo, Robinson, Hull, Monye, DArmitage, Erinle (was picked there rather than centre for England at least once), Sackey, Varndell, Ojo, and plenty of others that I forget.

Puja

I know this is more relevant to the "other" game, but Olsen Filipaina was a ground breaker for Polynesian league players in the NRL in the 80's and was for a while there the best stand off (fly half) in the game, famously handing Wally Lewis his arse in a few classic test matches against the Roos. The shit he had to endure from awful ethnic stereotypes was phenomenal. He is a Titan amongst young brown men in the 13-man code. Spare a thought also for killer playmakers of indigenous Australian and Torres Straight Island descent (like the Ella brothers) that put up with ridiculous cynicism from the whitebread administrators and fans.

It's specifically 9/10.

The point being made that black athletes are considered muscular and powerful and hence fit those positions, forwards, centres, wings, even full back to an extent. I can think of many examples in each of these positions as far back as I remember starting to be a rugby nut (some 37 years now) but ask me to remember a black 9 or 10? until Cips/Umaga/Henry? i'm still thinking now... I mentioned before Aadel Kardooni at Tigers in the early 90's, he was Iranian I believe. After that i'm drawing blanks.

Puja wrote:

jngf wrote:

Puja wrote:
I actually remember having this conversation with someone, many years ago, about why there were no black forwards in England. Before around 2008, the only black players tended to be wingers, maybe because of a latent racist stereotype about sprinters idk? It only really changed with Lawes onwards - we had an all black back 3 at one point, but no black forwards.

I don't know what's seen as the most cerebral forwards position and whether players are directed away from that. Openside, maybe?

Puja

Victor Ubogu (Prop) and Steve Ojomoh (No8, BSF, OSF) were big part of Late Cooke then Jack Rowell squad of early to mid 90s. In fact arguably the two most talented forwards of that era in their respective positions - certainly believe Ojomoh had overtaken Deano as a no.8 by about 94/95

Good point, well made - I shall get a ticking off for being factually incorrect. I knew there were people I was missing. Were there any before that? Certainly there was a gap between them retiring 98ish and Lawes getting capped around 2009 (and then remaining pretty much the only representative in the England pack for a good number of years, aside from the occasional SArmitage cameo), while wingers included Adebayo, Robinson, Hull, Monye, DArmitage, Erinle (was picked there rather than centre for England at least once), Sackey, Varndell, Ojo, and plenty of others that I forget.

Puja

Guscott for one. Also Chris Oti. In the forwards Bath players have already been mentioned, i've not read the thread thoroughly enough to realise if we are talking England only or European, or World. There were a good number of French black forwards in the late 80's and 90's.

Gloskarlos wrote:It's specifically 9/10.

The point being made that black athletes are considered muscular and powerful and hence fit those positions, forwards, centres, wings, even full back to an extent. I can think of many examples in each of these positions as far back as I remember starting to be a rugby nut (some 37 years now) but ask me to remember a black 9 or 10? until Cips/Umaga/Henry? i'm still thinking now... I mentioned before Aadel Kardooni at Tigers in the early 90's, he was Iranian I believe. After that i'm drawing blanks.

The only ones I can think of, are all imports, or at best 2nd generation imports (like Matevesi)

I've not watched the interview, but IMO there's little racism at the top of rugby (crowds can be a different matter), but plenty of institutional racism at the lower levels, where players are finding their positions. no-one's got a problem with hiring a BAME halfback like Serevi, Gregan, Fotuali'i or Spencer; but in this country, a kid coming through the system is just unlikely to be trusted there. I suspect that's exactly the point Odogwu is making.

I would also agree that rugby has a real problem with the South Asian community - which is actually somewhat surprising, given that the community has good representation in private education, has an equally unfair stereotype for being intelligent and agile - you'd think low-level coaches would push them towards the halfback spots

I think you’re all losing sight of the important thing here, Odogwu made a mistake. Isn’t that what really matters?

Mikey Brown wrote:I think you’re all losing sight of the important thing here, Odogwu made a mistake. Isn’t that what really matters?

To try again. That he made a mistake doesn't invalidate his wider point, but, if he's trying to make a point that there are literally no black 10s in the prem maybe we shouldn't do such a disservice to the fact there are some such players. You can still go on to claim there should be more, but ignoring those who are there is itself trading down the lines of being offensive. Unless one wants to claim the ones that are there don't matter, and surely part of the point is they do matter.

I will note back when I was learning to play rugby as well as being involved in rugby and cricket I also ran for Birchfield Harriers, as a bang average age grade sprinter, and some of the black players who came into rugby came via athletics meaning they had no background in rugby and decision making on the field and really only came because they were powerful and/or fast. So some of the history of black players not featuring at halfback isn't altogether surprising.

Whereas these days I know locally if you happen to be along on a weekend morning to watch say u10s (or other junior side) featuring sides like Erdington, Lichfield, Sutton Coldfield, Bromsgrove, it's no longer unusual to see black kids in the halfbacks who've come direct into rugby. Again this doesn't mean there isn't more to do, it doesn't mean players in rugby haven't faced racism. It doesn't mean however you can say I've faced racism and then say the earth is flat and expect not to have someone take the piss that you're literal claim is for shit, if you're hoping for people not to take the piss then rugby and the internet may not be for you

Puja wrote: Good point, well made - I shall get a ticking off for being factually incorrect. I knew there were people I was missing. Were there any before that? Certainly there was a gap between them retiring 98ish and Lawes getting capped around 2009 (and then remaining pretty much the only representative in the England pack for a good number of years, aside from the occasional SArmitage cameo), while wingers included Adebayo, Robinson, Hull, Monye, DArmitage, Erinle (was picked there rather than centre for England at least once), Sackey, Varndell, Ojo, and plenty of others that I forget.

Ralph Knibbs - probaly better than any of the above (possibly not Robinson) but shot himself in the foot by refusing to tour SA in 1984 because of apartheid and Australia in 88 because he had to work.

I dimly remember this guy from around the time he was active - https://worldrugbymuseum.com/from-the-v ... t-mcgregor

Digby wrote:To try again. That he made a mistake doesn't invalidate his wider point, but, if he's trying to make a point that there are literally no black 10s in the prem maybe we shouldn't do such a disservice to the fact there are some such players. You can still go on to claim there should be more, but ignoring those who are there is itself trading down the lines of being offensive. Unless one wants to claim the ones that are there don't matter, and surely part of the point is they do matter.

We get what you've said and why you've said it. You are technically correct, which is the best kind of correct - Danny Cipriani is indeed mixed race and even if it's completely understandable that Odogwu didn't know that, he is technically incorrect. The problem that exists is where you have looked at a video of a black player talking about race and racism, decided that you're not interested in watching it, but also that you must offer your opinion on it and point out the one example where he's wrong.

Puja

twitchy wrote:

Wow. Just wow.

Puja

twitchy wrote:

Wow that guy is a racist prick with a chip on his shoulder isn't he. I'd also say the haircut isn't very Beckham esque either. I notice he was the only one laughing at his "joke". Seems very bitter that a young English guy could make the team, is he a Leinster fan by chance?

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:To try again. That he made a mistake doesn't invalidate his wider point, but, if he's trying to make a point that there are literally no black 10s in the prem maybe we shouldn't do such a disservice to the fact there are some such players. You can still go on to claim there should be more, but ignoring those who are there is itself trading down the lines of being offensive. Unless one wants to claim the ones that are there don't matter, and surely part of the point is they do matter.

We get what you've said and why you've said it. You are technically correct, which is the best kind of correct - Danny Cipriani is indeed mixed race and even if it's completely understandable that Odogwu didn't know that, he it wasn’t technically correct to say ‘no black people’. The problem that exists is where you have looked at a video of a black player talking about race and racism, decided that you're not interested in watching it, but also that you must offer your opinion on it and point out the one example where he's wrong.

Puja

Yes I’m just baffled by the insistence on spending so much time arguing that Odogwu made an error, (which nobody is disputing is technically correct) while having not the remotest interest in understanding the broader points that he was making. Even though they’re in agreement on most of those points anyway.

Journalists don’t pick their headlines. Odogwu didn’t choose that thumbnail for the video. He did make the statement in the context of not seeing dark-skinned people like himself in those ‘technical’ positions, and it wasn’t technically accurate. To not even want to try and understand that, whilst independently being quite sympathetic to the same issues he raised, is just leaving me a bit confused.

twitchy wrote:

Ah.

Hmm.

This is the same twat that said gay people do not have any interest in sport?

Thought you meant Digby for a minute there.

Just looked this Francis guy up and I see it's the genius behind this.

4. Hamish Watson is a poor man’s Josh van der Flier
"Hamish Watson also gets a seat on the plane. He was voted as the player of the tournament in this year’s Six Nations by the fans. However, every time Edinburgh play against Leinster he seems to be blown off the pitch by Josh van der Flier."

A frankly incredible effort from van der Flier to consistently outplay the Six Nations’ Player of the Tournament. It’s especially noteworthy given these two players have never – not once, not ever – started a club game against each other and their total head to head time at that level is a whopping 15 minutes in 2016.

Not really on the same level, but it seems like he has a reputation for being a complete moron.

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:To try again. That he made a mistake doesn't invalidate his wider point, but, if he's trying to make a point that there are literally no black 10s in the prem maybe we shouldn't do such a disservice to the fact there are some such players. You can still go on to claim there should be more, but ignoring those who are there is itself trading down the lines of being offensive. Unless one wants to claim the ones that are there don't matter, and surely part of the point is they do matter.

We get what you've said and why you've said it. You are technically correct, which is the best kind of correct - Danny Cipriani is indeed mixed race and even if it's completely understandable that Odogwu didn't know that, he is technically incorrect. The problem that exists is where you have looked at a video of a black player talking about race and racism, decided that you're not interested in watching it, but also that you must offer your opinion on it and point out the one example where he's wrong.

Puja

I'm not very interested in people period. So people talking about their lives, feelings and the like isn't going to elicit interest on my part, I'm much more likely to think FFS shut the bleep up, or at least stop talking such I can hear it. So if I'm watching TV it's pretty much rugby or cricket, the idea of watching something like a soap opera or really anything people have feelings is anathema.

Though yes, if he's going to point out there are no black players then I do think it'd be advisable to actually realise there are some black players and it'd be better not to ignore them than claim they don't exist. A defence he didn't know a player was of a certain background is very much the same defence Neil Francis is running

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:To try again. That he made a mistake doesn't invalidate his wider point, but, if he's trying to make a point that there are literally no black 10s in the prem maybe we shouldn't do such a disservice to the fact there are some such players. You can still go on to claim there should be more, but ignoring those who are there is itself trading down the lines of being offensive. Unless one wants to claim the ones that are there don't matter, and surely part of the point is they do matter.

We get what you've said and why you've said it. You are technically correct, which is the best kind of correct - Danny Cipriani is indeed mixed race and even if it's completely understandable that Odogwu didn't know that, he is technically incorrect. The problem that exists is where you have looked at a video of a black player talking about race and racism, decided that you're not interested in watching it, but also that you must offer your opinion on it and point out the one example where he's wrong.

Puja

I'm not very interested in people period. So people talking about their lives, feelings and the like isn't going to elicit interest on my part, I'm much more likely to think FFS shut the bleep up, or at least stop talking such I can hear it. So if I'm watching TV it's pretty much rugby or cricket, the idea of watching something like a soap opera or really anything people have feelings is anathema.

Though yes, if he's going to point out there are no black players then I do think it'd be advisable to actually realise there are some black players and it'd be better not to ignore them than claim they don't exist. A defence he didn't know a player was of a certain background is very much the same defence Neil Francis is running

Are you a cyborg?

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:To try again. That he made a mistake doesn't invalidate his wider point, but, if he's trying to make a point that there are literally no black 10s in the prem maybe we shouldn't do such a disservice to the fact there are some such players. You can still go on to claim there should be more, but ignoring those who are there is itself trading down the lines of being offensive. Unless one wants to claim the ones that are there don't matter, and surely part of the point is they do matter.

We get what you've said and why you've said it. You are technically correct, which is the best kind of correct - Danny Cipriani is indeed mixed race and even if it's completely understandable that Odogwu didn't know that, he is technically incorrect. The problem that exists is where you have looked at a video of a black player talking about race and racism, decided that you're not interested in watching it, but also that you must offer your opinion on it and point out the one example where he's wrong.

Puja

I'm not very interested in people period. So people talking about their lives, feelings and the like isn't going to elicit interest on my part, I'm much more likely to think FFS shut the bleep up, or at least stop talking such I can hear it. So if I'm watching TV it's pretty much rugby or cricket, the idea of watching something like a soap opera or really anything people have feelings is anathema.

Though yes, if he's going to point out there are no black players then I do think it'd be advisable to actually realise there are some black players and it'd be better not to ignore them than claim they don't exist. A defence he didn't know a player was of a certain background is very much the same defence Neil Francis is running

This thread is literally about two wasps players talking about their feelings and experiences, as well as their intuitions to the causes. Seems like an odd one to post replies to from someone who is not interested in people.

Surprised people haven't pointed this out already but he said "There currently isn't a black 9 or 10 in the premiership", which with Zack Henry having left Leicester and Cipriani not played a game for bath yet, is true. Also, race is a social construct, so even if Cipriani identifies as black (Which I think is a difficult assumption to make as many people of dual heritage struggle with identity), it doesn't mean that the world will treat him as such, which is the point Paolo is trying to make.

I think anyone who has played alot of rugby will agree with Paolo statements about lack of black players in the skill positions. I think it is a very multi-factorial issue, least of which being that the 9s and 10s who make it professional have usually being playing since they could walk, when neuroplasticity is at its highest, and are more likely to come from families that are rugby mad (Farrell, Ford, Barrett). I imagine for example that rugby isn't as big culturally in minority communities and hence these players will also start later.

padprop wrote:I think anyone who has played alot of rugby will agree with Paolo statements about lack of black players in the skill positions. I think it is a very multi-factorial issue, least of which being that the 9s and 10s who make it professional have usually being playing since they could walk, when neuroplasticity is at its highest, and are more likely to come from families that are rugby mad (Farrell, Ford, Barrett). I imagine for example that rugby isn't as big culturally in minority communities and hence these players will also start later.

Agreed. There is also a lack of role models from a global POV.

With the exception of Romain Ntamack (his paternal grandparents are from Cameroon) and Elton Jantjies, there aren’t any other black 10s playing at test level and not many more starting at club level.

It’s not much different at 9 either. Herschel Jantjies is the only one I can think of!

padprop wrote:

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:
We get what you've said and why you've said it. You are technically correct, which is the best kind of correct - Danny Cipriani is indeed mixed race and even if it's completely understandable that Odogwu didn't know that, he is technically incorrect. The problem that exists is where you have looked at a video of a black player talking about race and racism, decided that you're not interested in watching it, but also that you must offer your opinion on it and point out the one example where he's wrong.

Puja

I'm not very interested in people period. So people talking about their lives, feelings and the like isn't going to elicit interest on my part, I'm much more likely to think FFS shut the bleep up, or at least stop talking such I can hear it. So if I'm watching TV it's pretty much rugby or cricket, the idea of watching something like a soap opera or really anything people have feelings is anathema.

Though yes, if he's going to point out there are no black players then I do think it'd be advisable to actually realise there are some black players and it'd be better not to ignore them than claim they don't exist. A defence he didn't know a player was of a certain background is very much the same defence Neil Francis is running

This thread is literally about two wasps players talking about their feelings and experiences, as well as their intuitions to the causes. Seems like an odd one to post replies to from someone who is not interested in people.

Not interested in people. Not interested in listening. Not interested in watching the video. Interested in pointing out where a black man talking about his encounters with race and racism is wrong.

Puja