RugbyRebels

Rich wrote:

Puja wrote:

Rich wrote:Most on here won't admit it but Farrell is a class player and made the difference today.

What specifically did he do when he came on?

Puja

Lets see, we were losing 10-15 before he came on.

We were winning 35-15 at the end of the game.

Farrell wasn't the only change that was made in the match was he? Can the win be attributed to Underhill, Moon, Wigglesworth, Hartley, Sinkler and Hill too? Lets see, we were losing by the same scoreline you noted above when some of those players came on too. Plus surely a half time bollocking has an effect too?

We also started the match with an unknown midfield and ended with a familiar one. The backrow finished stronger too. This isn't just the Farrell effect.

The Beeb showed Farrell flying out of the line to make a tackle which was man and ball. Well timed, the Japanese player possibly bottled it a bit and then England won a penalty as another Japanese player touched the ball whilst offside. A good intervention by Farrell on this occasion. However, that is not always the case with him flying out of the line is it? Although, that doesn't seem to get mentioned much.

So it still begs the question posed by Puja...What specifically did he do when he came on?

Rich wrote:You really didn't see any difference in England's back play in the second half?

It was night and day.

The England backs had leadership in the second half.

The whole England team had leadership....the first half was a rudderless mess.


You can stick your head in the sand if you want but Farrell is now the first name on the teamsheet.

So all Farrell provided was leadership then?

His 6 tackles made, 1 missed and 2 turnovers conceded must've helped surely?

For me, so far.
We've discovered some prop forwards that can do the job.
Wilson can play in a test back row.
May is our best winger but is still prone to muppetry that his speed can usually cover up.
If Browny has now gone, we're a long way from having a top fullback. Watson maybe able to fix this... Maybe.
Ben Teo can get you over the gain line, like, just over the gain line, just a tad, no more.
It's been clear for ages before but playing Ford and Farrell doesn't give us anything like a two first receivers game, y'know (well... y'know how Rob Andrew and Will Carling say "well.... Y'know... "). Play both together and Ford goes into his shell and does not contribute. I also see Ford being run through and rag doll'ed too often, whilst Farrell's defence is picked apart on the board a lot.
Midfield is still an open book, JJ and Daly have looked the part at 13 previously. Manu is still in the shadows, but the question remains that ideally he would be the big 12, but will his hands and distribution stifle any wider play, however, Teo gets us just over the gain line, just, just over the gain line.
The driving maul is up and running, whether it can be employed around the park more effectively remains to be seen in these days of defending forwards not committing.
We box kick too often.
Our kick fielding/returners run laterally too often looking for gaps or mismatches or friendly forwards. They are going to get hammered soon.
I'm going to stop now.

It seems very hard to get any objectivity into the Farrell debate, particularly as the media are obsessed with him to an embarrassing degree..
I'm no admirer. I've criticised him in the past, heck his defence last week was abject, but you do have to concede that at times he can galvanise those around him.
Yesterday he played a part in turning things around. He wasnt the only reason we won: we did make tactical tweaks, other players did come and contribute also and Japan lost some of their fluency due to the pressure we applied. The fact is we looked a better side with him on the 2nd half. I dont think its unreasonable to say that he played a positive part in the win.
Elsewhere the 2 starting props did little to advance their cause, neither centre was a success and Daly hasnt really got to grips with the FB position.

Rich wrote:

Puja wrote:

Rich wrote:Most on here won't admit it but Farrell is a class player and made the difference today.

What specifically did he do when he came on?

Puja

Lets see, we were losing 10-15 before he came on.

We were winning 35-15 at the end of the game.

But what did he specifically do?

Puja

I watched that admiring the way Japan play the game. They were terrific in the WC and they were good value yest too. Their speed of play is a joy. This was the reason I wanted Eddie to take the Eng job in the first place, he hasn't even tried to bring any of that to the Eng team sadly. At the very least I wanted him to get the ball out of the scrum at lightning speed but he didn't even bring that.

Very impressed with their 12 among others, he was a menace all match.

fivepointer wrote:It seems very hard to get any objectivity into the Farrell debate, particularly as the media are obsessed with him to an embarrassing degree..

I'd also say that lots of fans are as well in the other direction to the point of it becoming really tedious.

I do not like Farrell and question his actual rugby ability. However, there is no doubt at all that the team played better in the 2nd half and, as far as I could see on TV, Farrell was inspirational. The team seemed to up its intensity level and he has to have nad a part in that.

I think that, in terms of actual play, Wigglesworth added more with Underhill not far behind him. Another who rarely gets credit here is Hartley but he made a difference. It cannot just have been his front row partners either because in the first scrum during the sin binning of George, the Hartley-inspired forwards got a scrum penalty despite being a man down.

fivepointer wrote:It seems very hard to get any objectivity into the Farrell debate, particularly as the media are obsessed with him to an embarrassing degree..
I'm no admirer. I've criticised him in the past, heck his defence last week was abject, but you do have to concede that at times he can galvanise those around him.
Yesterday he played a part in turning things around. He wasnt the only reason we won: we did make tactical tweaks, other players did come and contribute also and Japan lost some of their fluency due to the pressure we applied. The fact is we looked a better side with him on the 2nd half. I dont think its unreasonable to say that he played a positive part in the win.
Elsewhere the 2 starting props did little to advance their cause, neither centre was a success and Daly hasnt really got to grips with the FB position.

Yup, I'd go with that.
For me, the first half showed that Itoje was the only forward who could actually be bothered to make an impact, whilst the rest seemed to be either just waiting for something to happen, or to hit the panic button when it still hadn't. Care was absolutely abject, to the degree that I couldn't really judge anything at all about players 10-15.
Changes were made at half time, but the biggest change seemed to be that half time had happened. Which includes some time for reflection, some coaching and a change (or reminder) or tactics.
Farrell also came on, and I don't think I've ever denied that he has a galvanising effect on those around him (or at least, those who aren't George Ford); but I don't think that Farrell is the reason that George, Lawes and Wilson realised that they were actually playing international rugby. With that degree of control up front, we actually looked like we knew what we were doing for the first time; but it took the arrival of Curry, Moon and Sinckler to make us look like we actually had ascendancy with Wigglesworth making us look decent for the first time.

This really would be a good match for Diggers to do his play by play breakdown for.
In the mean time, just having a look at the Guardians live commentary thing, purely looking for "what did Farrell actually do?". These are all mentions of Farrell, or England's centres as a unit.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/live/ ... ional-live
41 min: Owen Farrell is on for England, with Alex Kozowski making way. For Japan, Sauela Anise, Shunsuke Nunomaki and Yutaka Nagare are on.

42 min: England 10-15 Japan: A good kick for touch from Owen Farrell gives England possession just inside the Japan 22.
I seem to remember Ford kept the kicking duties though.

47 min: England 10-15 Japan On Sky Sports, Stuart Barnes makes the point that Japan’s centres are repeatedly running into the midfield area, drawing two or three Englishmen into tackles and offloading the ball with lightning speed, allowing the recipients to run into the spaces left by those committed to the tackle.

48 min: England 10-15 Japan Courtney Lawes goes into battering ram mode and the ball is played back to Elliot Daly. He tries a long kick in behind for Owen Farrell to chase, but his effort is too weighty and Will Tupou gets back to clean up for Japan.

Penalty! England 13-15 Japan (Ford 56) England trail by two after George Ford puts the ball between the posts. He takes the kick despite the presence of England’s first choice kicker Owen Farrell’s presence on the pitch.

62 min: England 20-15 Japan A rare handling error from Nakamura in the Japanese ranks gives England the put-in just outside the Japan 22. The ball’s kicked towards the goal-line by Farrell, with Henry Slade, on as a substitute, chasing it. Full-back Will Tupou to the rescue for Japan.

Full-time: England 35-15 Japan. It’s all over. England avoid embarrassment, putting a hideously bad first-half effort behind them to show their class and dominate Japan in the second. Their bench helped them overcome a game and often dazzling Japan side, with Owen Farrell’s class and experience helping calm his side after Eddie Jones rang the changes.

These play by play posts get more popular the longer I don't do them. I might have a whirl at this game, but I've been asked to do a few other games and thanks to brexit I don’t have enough staff so 14 hour days remain the norm, and somehow the play by play isn't a priority

To sum up the game we could reasonably say Japan played at pace and England put a lock in the backrow

Still having seen how stupid a lock at blindside is I confidently assert we will not be seeing that nonsense again

Digby wrote:To sum up the game we could reasonably say Japan played at pace and England put a lock in the backrow

Still having seen how stupid a lock at blindside is I confidently assert we will not be seeing that nonsense again

Decent summary.
However, if there's one thing we know about Eddie, it's that he's a stubborn bugger who will not change his mind based on a mere dozen examples of it having failed, or a couple of dozensp examples that the precise opposite is more successful.

I confidently predict that we WILL see England start with 3 locks at least twice in the 6N, and at least twice in the RWC.

Digby wrote:To sum up the game we could reasonably say Japan played at pace and England put a lock in the backrow

Still having seen how stupid a lock at blindside is I confidently assert we will not be seeing that nonsense again

The difference was most stark when George was in the bin and we decided to take Mercer off for some reason to leave Wilson as our only back row. For some reason, Japan got lots of quick ball and we didn't put any pressure on their attack.

Lawes at 6 can work - last week, in a tight, physical encounter restricted by the weather, he was very good. In sunny dry weather against a team that looks to evade clinches and spread the ball often and early, it wasn't exactly ideal.

Puja

Which Tyler wrote:

Digby wrote:To sum up the game we could reasonably say Japan played at pace and England put a lock in the backrow

Still having seen how stupid a lock at blindside is I confidently assert we will not be seeing that nonsense again

Decent summary.
However, if there's one thing we know about Eddie, it's that he's a stubborn bugger who will not change his mind based on a mere dozen examples of it having failed, or a couple of dozensp examples that the precise opposite is more successful.

I confidently predict that we WILL see England start with 3 locks at least twice in the 6N, and at least twice in the RWC.

I'm sure having tried it in this game Eddie will not want to try it again, not seeing what happens. That would just be silly

Beasties above may echo the thoughts of many that Eddie would come in and up the pace, instead Eddie came in and rather seemed to panic at the fitness levels and skills on show and instead we've had a focus on physicality and intent, it feels akin to having Jeremy Clarkson involved screaming power above any other voices raising other concerns

Digby wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

Digby wrote:To sum up the game we could reasonably say Japan played at pace and England put a lock in the backrow

Still having seen how stupid a lock at blindside is I confidently assert we will not be seeing that nonsense again

Decent summary.
However, if there's one thing we know about Eddie, it's that he's a stubborn bugger who will not change his mind based on a mere dozen examples of it having failed, or a couple of dozensp examples that the precise opposite is more successful.

I confidently predict that we WILL see England start with 3 locks at least twice in the 6N, and at least twice in the RWC.

I'm sure having tried it in this game Eddie will not want to try it again, not seeing what happens. That would just be silly

Beasties above may echo the thoughts of many that Eddie would come in and up the pace, instead Eddie came in and rather seemed to panic at the fitness levels and skills on show and instead we've had a focus on physicality and intent, it feels akin to having Jeremy Clarkson involved screaming power above any other voices raising other concerns

Martin Johnson era......"...win the collisons..."

What about all the matches where Farrell has been on the pitch and there hasn't been a galvanising effect?

I'm not saying his introduction didn't make a difference yesterday, but I think that perhaps very stern words from Eddie along the lines of "you are playing for your test futures now" may have had more impact.

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Which Tyler wrote:This really would be a good match for Diggers to do his play by play breakdown for.
In the mean time, just having a look at the Guardians live commentary thing, purely looking for "what did Farrell actually do?". These are all mentions of Farrell, or England's centres as a unit.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/live/ ... ional-live
41 min: Owen Farrell is on for England, with Alex Kozowski making way. For Japan, Sauela Anise, Shunsuke Nunomaki and Yutaka Nagare are on.

42 min: England 10-15 Japan: A good kick for touch from Owen Farrell gives England possession just inside the Japan 22.
I seem to remember Ford kept the kicking duties though.

47 min: England 10-15 Japan On Sky Sports, Stuart Barnes makes the point that Japan’s centres are repeatedly running into the midfield area, drawing two or three Englishmen into tackles and offloading the ball with lightning speed, allowing the recipients to run into the spaces left by those committed to the tackle.

48 min: England 10-15 Japan Courtney Lawes goes into battering ram mode and the ball is played back to Elliot Daly. He tries a long kick in behind for Owen Farrell to chase, but his effort is too weighty and Will Tupou gets back to clean up for Japan.

Penalty! England 13-15 Japan (Ford 56) England trail by two after George Ford puts the ball between the posts. He takes the kick despite the presence of England’s first choice kicker Owen Farrell’s presence on the pitch.

62 min: England 20-15 Japan A rare handling error from Nakamura in the Japanese ranks gives England the put-in just outside the Japan 22. The ball’s kicked towards the goal-line by Farrell, with Henry Slade, on as a substitute, chasing it. Full-back Will Tupou to the rescue for Japan.

Full-time: England 35-15 Japan. It’s all over. England avoid embarrassment, putting a hideously bad first-half effort behind them to show their class and dominate Japan in the second. Their bench helped them overcome a game and often dazzling Japan side, with Owen Farrell’s class and experience helping calm his side after Eddie Jones rang the changes.

This pretty much sums it up doesn’t it? Even Owen Farrell’s presence has its own presence.

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twitchy wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/englands ... and-losers

Good summary, i think.

A few players let their chance go begging yesterday. They may not get many more to press their case for squad and 1st team selection.

One undoubted success was Cokanasiga. What now for him. Does he deserve a chance next week against Australia? Very tempting to pick him and see how he gets on but I suspect Eddie will revert to more established players.

I like how the article praises Japan for bossing possession and territory, and as a result control in the first half, then blames Ford for lack of control.

How can one control the game when the other team is in the ascendancy?

I don't think Ford did much wrong yesterday, but he is being blamed for Japan playing well.

It also notes the backline was more cohesive with Farrell on the pitch, but does little to explain the experimental feature of it when he wasn't on the pitch.

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fivepointer wrote: One undoubted success was Cokanasiga. What now for him. Does he deserve a chance next week against Australia? Very tempting to pick him and see how he gets on but I suspect Eddie will revert to more established players.

I worry about the Aussie's ability to exploit Nowell's pace, so I'd start the big man.
If JC is to be an option for the RWC, he needs as many international minutes as possible. Maybe protect him against Ireland, but for Australia and 4 of the Spring's matches, start him.
I also feel that IF Nowell is now considered not an option at OC, then he needs to re-find his form in order to go to the RWC. We'll take what? 4 from May, Daly, Watson, Cokanasiga, Brown and Nowell; especially if Slade is considered an emergency option at FB, and JJ the same on the wing.

May and Daly are nailed on starters.
Watson is nailed on to go if he recovers properly (and wouldn't need to play in the 6N to do so, undecided if I'd want him starting alongside May and Daly as it's a bit one-trick, albeit one hell of a good trick!). I think Brown's presence in Japan depends on Watson's recovery, if Watson goes, Brown doesn't; and vice versa.

Which means that Nowell and Coka are fighting for one shirt - one of those scare opponents, whilst having plenty to work on. Nowell is very effective, but I think he has opponents licking their lips, rather than scaring them. If he'd looked good at OC, then his versatility could have put him in prime position, but he just blew his audition, whilst his opponent was one of our best players.

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

England improved in the second half thanks to a number of reasons imo.

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richy678 wrote:

Digby wrote:

Which Tyler wrote: Decent summary.
However, if there's one thing we know about Eddie, it's that he's a stubborn bugger who will not change his mind based on a mere dozen examples of it having failed, or a couple of dozensp examples that the precise opposite is more successful.

I confidently predict that we WILL see England start with 3 locks at least twice in the 6N, and at least twice in the RWC.

I'm sure having tried it in this game Eddie will not want to try it again, not seeing what happens. That would just be silly

Beasties above may echo the thoughts of many that Eddie would come in and up the pace, instead Eddie came in and rather seemed to panic at the fitness levels and skills on show and instead we've had a focus on physicality and intent, it feels akin to having Jeremy Clarkson involved screaming power above any other voices raising other concerns

Martin Johnson era......"...win the collisons..."

Hardly just that era, also at times we had the most interesting attack under Johnson post 2002 with Flood, Flutey and Foden to the fore. One should never underestimate the power of alliteration