RugbyRebels

Where does Lawrence sit on that footwork and acceleration front? Above Tuilagi but not up there with Udogwu? I feel like he’s pretty nifty for a powerfully built player but not seen it for England yet.

Mikey Brown wrote:I’m not sure if I’ve simply turned into a negative, anti-English bore recently or what, but I feel like England need a bit more than a “smidge” of improvement in accuracy to get things fully in sync in that backline.

But yeah swap Tuilagi, or someone offering a similar threat, in there and maybe it wouldn’t even matter.

No you are dead right, our passing and support of the ball carrier need improving hugely; some of the passing in the wide channels was execrable, and the amount of over-running was a bit cringy too. In general, our skills at high pace and intensity need more than a smidge of improvement--- which is kind of where Eddie is, and why we tend to go out with a limited attack plan. Its definitely gettiing better, but getting those skills to the level of unconscious competence (sorry) is a pretty long term project.

Mikey Brown wrote:Where does Lawrence sit on that footwork and acceleration front? Above Tuilagi but not up there with Udogwu? I feel like he’s pretty nifty for a powerfully built player but not seen it for England yet.

I'd probably place him below (not by much) Odogwu on power and acceleration, similar for footwork, but better handling. Oh, and an absolute ton more experience in the centres, so probably a much better defender at this time.

Still thinking of a Randall, Smith, Cokasiga (mispelled but not going to check it right now), Lawrence, Odogwu, Thorley, Malins backline for the future, but maybe that's greedy to hope they all make the international cut.

Raggs wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote: Most sides do, most sides pick and choose. I think we possibly over-resourced some defensive rucks.

Most sides aren't playing the ball as fast as England. If England get a smidge more accuracy they're going to rip someone a new something or other, if they get Manu back (though it seems not) they'd rip them two.

Else what's the plan for defending England, hope the weather was like last Wednesday/Thursday not yesterday's much nicer conditions? That's not a plan, nor is hope England don't pick their options well and don't have a power running option in the backs.

If Odogwu can actually get a game, or have a chance to continue his development at 13, he could be that Tuilagi replacement. He's not as powerful as Manu, but I think he has better footwork and acceleration, whilst still being powerful (there's a clip in an England Rugby video, where you see the size of his legs, it's ludicrous).

Sounds like they just don't think he's fit enough, yet. But they didn't call him up because they don't think he offers something. Exactly how they'd alter the lineup I don't know, but he and Thorley are both options, leaving open Watson or Slade to 15, or just drop one of Ford, Farrell, Slade or Watson.

I'd think Mitchell will be having a bit of a head scratch too, they'll be our worst tackle stats in a long long while I'd think.

Banquo wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I’m not sure if I’ve simply turned into a negative, anti-English bore recently or what, but I feel like England need a bit more than a “smidge” of improvement in accuracy to get things fully in sync in that backline.

But yeah swap Tuilagi, or someone offering a similar threat, in there and maybe it wouldn’t even matter.

No you are dead right, our passing and support of the ball carrier need improving hugely; some of the passing in the wide channels was execrable, and the amount of over-running was a bit cringy too. In general, our skills at high pace and intensity need more than a smidge of improvement--- which is kind of where Eddie is, and why we tend to go out with a limited attack plan. Its definitely gettiing better, but getting those skills to the level of unconscious competence (sorry) is a pretty long term project.

Small differences will make the difference. Just 2 or 3 better decisions at 9 and 10, 2 or 3 better pass executions, 2 or 3 better pieces of support work be it line of running or breakdown clearance.

I don't honestly know what comes next in this though, either we'll get that little bit of extra accuracy or sides will work out how to slow our ball to begin with. Sides could compress space on defence as we're doing on attack but that's going to leave some huge holes to kick into, so that looks like heads we win tails you lose sort of thinking.

It'd be lovely if England saw a massive improvement, but you're not likely to see that because they'd already be doing much better if there was room for massive improvement, and fine margins give big swings in outcome anyway. The only thing I'm sure of is nobody wants to defend such fast phase play. If we carry on like this we should only be losing games to teams who can reliably put 4-5 tries on us, or games were our set piece or discipline implode, and the set piece looks at worst functional.

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I’m not sure if I’ve simply turned into a negative, anti-English bore recently or what, but I feel like England need a bit more than a “smidge” of improvement in accuracy to get things fully in sync in that backline.

But yeah swap Tuilagi, or someone offering a similar threat, in there and maybe it wouldn’t even matter.

No you are dead right, our passing and support of the ball carrier need improving hugely; some of the passing in the wide channels was execrable, and the amount of over-running was a bit cringy too. In general, our skills at high pace and intensity need more than a smidge of improvement--- which is kind of where Eddie is, and why we tend to go out with a limited attack plan. Its definitely gettiing better, but getting those skills to the level of unconscious competence (sorry) is a pretty long term project.

Small differences will make the difference. Just 2 or 3 better decisions at 9 and 10, 2 or 3 better pass executions, 2 or 3 better pieces of support work be it line of running or breakdown clearance.

I don't honestly know what comes next in this though, either we'll get that little bit of extra accuracy or sides will work out how to slow our ball to begin with. Sides could compress space on defence as we're doing on attack but that's going to leave some huge holes to kick into, so that looks like heads we win tails you lose sort of thinking.

It'd be lovely if England saw a massive improvement, but you're not likely to see that because they'd already be doing much better if there was room for massive improvement, and fine margins give big swings in outcome anyway. The only thing I'm sure of is nobody wants to defend such fast phase play. If we carry on like this we should only be losing games to teams who can reliably put 4-5 tries on us, or games were our set piece or discipline implode, and the set piece looks at worst functional.

Collectively, they are not small to make happen though. Every player, imo needs to improve a lot in the skills and decision making areas especially.

The small margins of improvements are big jumps to take. If grading on a % basis going from 50-60% is quite easy, and represents a a big jump in performance. Going from 86-88% is quite hard, but also represents a big jump in performance, because the small marginal gains are hard to attain.

I generally agree, but I feel like we’re seeing situations at least once a game where things open up for the backline a bit and every player just drifts before throwing a fairly shonky pass. It’s been that way for a while.

There was one down the right hand side yesterday with a good 3-4 duff passes in a row. I know I’m picking out specific examples but that’s not 2%.

Digby wrote:The small margins of improvements are big jumps to take. If grading on a % basis going from 50-60% is quite easy, and represents a a big jump in performance. Going from 86-88% is quite hard, but also represents a big jump in performance, because the small marginal gains are hard to attain.

which is what I said.

Mikey Brown wrote:I generally agree, but I feel like we’re seeing situations at least once a game where things open up for the backline a bit and every player just drifts before throwing a fairly shonky pass. It’s been that way for a while.

There was one down the right hand side yesterday with a good 3-4 duff passes in a row. I know I’m picking out specific examples but that’s not 2%.

2% each for the 4 players . I think the difference between a good pass and a shonky pass isn't huge tbh , and the running line piece similarly....but take a lot of work to improve them under pressure; for example, most players who think they are running straight ie parallel to the touchline are wrong ....

Mikey Brown wrote:I generally agree, but I feel like we’re seeing situations at least once a game where things open up for the backline a bit and every player just drifts before throwing a fairly shonky pass. It’s been that way for a while.

There was one down the right hand side yesterday with a good 3-4 duff passes in a row. I know I’m picking out specific examples but that’s not 2%.

We're 4 games into playing a new much faster attack system. And the side has one of the best handling packs England have ever picked, and arguably 5 halfbacks in the backs. Yes there are some out and out handling errors, take a bow Mr Malins, but a decent number are the passer and receiver just seeing the options a little differently and that will always happen.

Granted England rugby doesn't tend to put in enough effort on passing. Normally it's only the Aussies and NZ who do, and even the Aussies then often pick big lads in the backs and ignore they don't pass all that well

Digby wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I generally agree, but I feel like we’re seeing situations at least once a game where things open up for the backline a bit and every player just drifts before throwing a fairly shonky pass. It’s been that way for a while.

There was one down the right hand side yesterday with a good 3-4 duff passes in a row. I know I’m picking out specific examples but that’s not 2%.

We're 4 games into playing a new much faster attack system. And the side has one of the best handling packs England have ever picked, and arguably 5 halfbacks in the backs. Yes there are some out and out handling errors, take a bow Mr Malins, but a decent number are the passer and receiver just seeing the options a little differently and that will always happen.

Granted England rugby doesn't tend to put in enough effort on passing. Normally it's only the Aussies and NZ who do, and even the Aussies then often pick big lads in the backs and ignore they don't pass all that well

French might quibble a tad.

Our pack handling is ok, though prone to dropsies and none of our better second rows are good handlers. Some of the backs arent exactly mustard either- Youngs, Faz, May are all well away from silky passers for me.

Digby wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I generally agree, but I feel like we’re seeing situations at least once a game where things open up for the backline a bit and every player just drifts before throwing a fairly shonky pass. It’s been that way for a while.

There was one down the right hand side yesterday with a good 3-4 duff passes in a row. I know I’m picking out specific examples but that’s not 2%.

We're 4 games into playing a new much faster attack system. And the side has one of the best handling packs England have ever picked, and arguably 5 halfbacks in the backs. Yes there are some out and out handling errors, take a bow Mr Malins, but a decent number are the passer and receiver just seeing the options a little differently and that will always happen.

Granted England rugby doesn't tend to put in enough effort on passing. Normally it's only the Aussies and NZ who do, and even the Aussies then often pick big lads in the backs and ignore they don't pass all that well

I'm not just talking about dropped balls or blatant missed overlaps/opportunities though, we consistently get timing/accuracy just wrong enough to stifle a really fluid attack. I appreciate we're changing systems but it's been an area of potential improvement for quite a long time.

Mikey Brown wrote:

Digby wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I generally agree, but I feel like we’re seeing situations at least once a game where things open up for the backline a bit and every player just drifts before throwing a fairly shonky pass. It’s been that way for a while.

There was one down the right hand side yesterday with a good 3-4 duff passes in a row. I know I’m picking out specific examples but that’s not 2%.

We're 4 games into playing a new much faster attack system. And the side has one of the best handling packs England have ever picked, and arguably 5 halfbacks in the backs. Yes there are some out and out handling errors, take a bow Mr Malins, but a decent number are the passer and receiver just seeing the options a little differently and that will always happen.

Granted England rugby doesn't tend to put in enough effort on passing. Normally it's only the Aussies and NZ who do, and even the Aussies then often pick big lads in the backs and ignore they don't pass all that well

I'm not just talking about dropped balls or blatant missed overlaps/opportunities though, we consistently get timing/accuracy just wrong enough to stifle a really fluid attack. I appreciate we're changing systems but it's been an area of potential improvement for quite a long time.

whats odd is that we are all agreeing that our passing can and should be improved and it will make a big difference. However, quite tricky for national coach to do that purely in squad time.

Mikey Brown wrote:

Digby wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I generally agree, but I feel like we’re seeing situations at least once a game where things open up for the backline a bit and every player just drifts before throwing a fairly shonky pass. It’s been that way for a while.

There was one down the right hand side yesterday with a good 3-4 duff passes in a row. I know I’m picking out specific examples but that’s not 2%.

We're 4 games into playing a new much faster attack system. And the side has one of the best handling packs England have ever picked, and arguably 5 halfbacks in the backs. Yes there are some out and out handling errors, take a bow Mr Malins, but a decent number are the passer and receiver just seeing the options a little differently and that will always happen.

Granted England rugby doesn't tend to put in enough effort on passing. Normally it's only the Aussies and NZ who do, and even the Aussies then often pick big lads in the backs and ignore they don't pass all that well

I'm not just talking about dropped balls or blatant missed overlaps/opportunities though, we consistently get timing/accuracy just wrong enough to stifle a really fluid attack. I appreciate we're changing systems but it's been an area of potential improvement for quite a long time.

That's not so much a youth thing anymore, bar not enough kids play rugby so we're not picking the players with the most potential, it's a club thing. The clubs give the players work ons, but they don't tend to give them any time time for those.

Still, we are playing at huge pace now, we've just seen Scotland Vs Ireland which was running at half or even a third of the pace at times. To some degree we'd have to accept you're not going to pick and execute cleanly at the pace of yesterday, players will just be hanging on at times and even just fecked at points.

Ireland fritter away a good lead v. Scotland and just nick it at the death. England have little to fear next week.

England had little to fear from Scotland and Wales, so that doesn't mean much it would seem. Arguably England have a messed up sense of entitlement and they'd be better from having some sense of fear in camp.

Fair enough all round. That felt like a different sport to the game yesterday. Maybe my expectations are different when I switch nationalities.

Russell improving Ford's chances of a Lions trip, assuming he's (wrongly) behind 2 or 3 others already.

One can only pray Gats isn't a Ford fan

Yeah I’m more interested in how it shapes the England team left at home. I’d like to see Smith/Simmonds but also to see Ford with a different midfield combo.

I see no reason to move Ford on yet. He's an exceptionally good player, who is more than capable at international level.

I would like to see Smith at this level, but with the intent of bringing him on, not as a quick replacement for Ford.

I'd ideally like Youngs, Ford and Farrell to get picked for the Lions to force us to at least look at others. It might not make a difference as Eddie will no doubt swing straight back to them in the autumn, but at least the summer tour would be fun.

Assuming, of course, that either of these even happen

Banquo wrote:I'd think Mitchell will be having a bit of a head scratch too, they'll be our worst tackle stats in a long long while I'd think.

Although I thought Curry was one of the main reasons for Dupont being quiet for most of the game, ESPN have his stats as 4 tackles made 4 tackles missed!

Raggs wrote:I see no reason to move Ford on yet. He's an exceptionally good player, who is more than capable at international level.

I would like to see Smith at this level, but with the intent of bringing him on, not as a quick replacement for Ford.

Yeah I only meant during the Lions tour. Exactly as Danno says really.

In a similar way I'm curious if Slade will go, if Udogwu/Lawrence will get the chances that have previously gone to Francis/Lozowski.