RugbyRebels

Beasties wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:45 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:33 am Watching again and I just cannot understand how Kitschoff’s tackle to Courtney Lawes head wasn’t look at! We’ve had TMOs constantly engaging until this game when there is clear head contact and tumbleweed!

Happens at 24:26 with a replay showing absolute head contact.

I thought oof at the time, I’m guessing (but couldn’t remember) that it was that incident. No replay. Couldn’t hear any TMO communication either.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:50 am https://x.com/alexmlowe/status/17160136 ... MV3j-SK8yQ

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:22 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 7:27 am

jngf wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 10:33 pm

The issue is our best scrummaging props are both pensioners in rugby terms and the next pair are better in the tight than the loose. Martin was the pick of our forwards for me and Steward from our backs.

Martin is also a hell of a scrummager to have behind you as a prop.

I'd never considered him as a tight head lock before tbh, but I'd hope he sticks there, rather than fannying around with 6. Drop off when Chessum came on and then when Cole came off was noticeable. That said, it was Genge that was penalised 3 times I think- the last one was pretty comical looking at the angle of Koch (oo er), a loosehead simply can't 'create' that angle. But the game should have been beyond SA by then- I'm looking at Billy and Jamie now; I know its harsh, but that's test rugby; oh and Owen's 10 m for dissent/dumbass. Though that DG was spectacular- where's that been for 11 years

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:44 am BTW- Daly was superb in the role he was cast in, as was Mitchell.

Sunday Times score England 105/150, SA 75/150 with OF as MOTM. LOlz

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:13 am

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:05 am Did anyone else notice Earl completely blank BV at the end?

No. It is a remarkable scenario around the 8 shirt. BV selected as the only 8. T Willis omitted. BV red carded. Earl does a creditable temporary job in the shirt. Earl rises in standard and keeps the shirt. BV, for some bizarre reason, despite compelling playing standard evidence, gets the bench slot ahead of Ludlam.

Beasties wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:07 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:22 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 7:27 am

Martin is also a hell of a scrummager to have behind you as a prop.

I'd never considered him as a tight head lock before tbh, but I'd hope he sticks there, rather than fannying around with 6. Drop off when Chessum came on and then when Cole came off was noticeable. That said, it was Genge that was penalised 3 times I think- the last one was pretty comical looking at the angle of Koch (oo er), a loosehead simply can't 'create' that angle. But the game should have been beyond SA by then- I'm looking at Billy and Jamie now; I know its harsh, but that's test rugby; oh and Owen's 10 m for dissent/dumbass. Though that DG was spectacular- where's that been for 11 years

Although Kitshoff is a good scrummager, Nche’s a fekking beast. Sinckler actually didn’t disgrace himself tbf but he was going backwards mostly. Ironic that it was the other side of the scrum that produced the crucial pen. I doubt a knackered Cole would’ve done any better against Nche. Annoying that scrum went sideways, not round or initially one way. In my book a sideways scrum that doesn’t go forwards or backwards or wheels is just a scrum, requiring no pen. Ben Kay offering front row knowledge was and remains comical.

Beasties wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:10 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:13 am

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:05 am Did anyone else notice Earl completely blank BV at the end?

No. It is a remarkable scenario around the 8 shirt. BV selected as the only 8. T Willis omitted. BV red carded. Earl does a creditable temporary job in the shirt. Earl rises in standard and keeps the shirt. BV, for some bizarre reason, despite compelling playing standard evidence, gets the bench slot ahead of Ludlam.

We could drive ourselves mad trying to work out the selectorial process on that. It was nonsense from start to finish. Best to park it and move on.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:12 am

Beasties wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:10 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:13 am

No. It is a remarkable scenario around the 8 shirt. BV selected as the only 8. T Willis omitted. BV red carded. Earl does a creditable temporary job in the shirt. Earl rises in standard and keeps the shirt. BV, for some bizarre reason, despite compelling playing standard evidence, gets the bench slot ahead of Ludlam.

We could drive ourselves mad trying to work out the selectorial process on that. It was nonsense from start to finish. Best to park it and move on.

I can see the logic (once Willis et al weren't taken) - bulk carrying as a point of difference from bench, plus insurance if the scrum was being nudged and Earl struggling away from the base (where he was actually superb under pressure). The problem that Billy hasn't been Billy for a year +.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:10 am

Beasties wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:07 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:22 am

I'd never considered him as a tight head lock before tbh, but I'd hope he sticks there, rather than fannying around with 6. Drop off when Chessum came on and then when Cole came off was noticeable. That said, it was Genge that was penalised 3 times I think- the last one was pretty comical looking at the angle of Koch (oo er), a loosehead simply can't 'create' that angle. But the game should have been beyond SA by then- I'm looking at Billy and Jamie now; I know its harsh, but that's test rugby; oh and Owen's 10 m for dissent/dumbass. Though that DG was spectacular- where's that been for 11 years

Although Kitshoff is a good scrummager, Nche’s a fekking beast. Sinckler actually didn’t disgrace himself tbf but he was going backwards mostly. Ironic that it was the other side of the scrum that produced the crucial pen. I doubt a knackered Cole would’ve done any better against Nche. Annoying that scrum went sideways, not round or initially one way. In my book a sideways scrum that doesn’t go forwards or backwards or wheels is just a scrum, requiring no pen. Ben Kay offering front row knowledge was and remains comical.

Agreed, but suspect lack of tight head stability contributed to Genge's troubles, koch angle was pretty ludicrous tbh.

Beasties wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:24 am What happened to Raggs btw?

Beasties wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:17 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:12 am

Beasties wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:10 am

We could drive ourselves mad trying to work out the selectorial process on that. It was nonsense from start to finish. Best to park it and move on.

I can see the logic (once Willis et al weren't taken) - bulk carrying as a point of difference from bench, plus insurance if the scrum was being nudged and Earl struggling away from the base (where he was actually superb under pressure). The problem that Billy hasn't been Billy for a year +.

…and demonstrably so…
So why take him?

Beasties wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:07 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:22 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 7:27 am

Martin is also a hell of a scrummager to have behind you as a prop.

I'd never considered him as a tight head lock before tbh, but I'd hope he sticks there, rather than fannying around with 6. Drop off when Chessum came on and then when Cole came off was noticeable. That said, it was Genge that was penalised 3 times I think- the last one was pretty comical looking at the angle of Koch (oo er), a loosehead simply can't 'create' that angle. But the game should have been beyond SA by then- I'm looking at Billy and Jamie now; I know its harsh, but that's test rugby; oh and Owen's 10 m for dissent/dumbass. Though that DG was spectacular- where's that been for 11 years

Although Kitshoff is a good scrummager, Nche’s a fekking beast. Sinckler actually didn’t disgrace himself tbf but he was going backwards mostly. Ironic that it was the other side of the scrum that produced the crucial pen. I doubt a knackered Cole would’ve done any better against Nche. Annoying that scrum went sideways, not round or initially one way. In my book a sideways scrum that doesn’t go forwards or backwards or wheels is just a scrum, requiring no pen. Ben Kay offering front row knowledge was and remains comical.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:53 pm

Beasties wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:07 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:22 am

I'd never considered him as a tight head lock before tbh, but I'd hope he sticks there, rather than fannying around with 6. Drop off when Chessum came on and then when Cole came off was noticeable. That said, it was Genge that was penalised 3 times I think- the last one was pretty comical looking at the angle of Koch (oo er), a loosehead simply can't 'create' that angle. But the game should have been beyond SA by then- I'm looking at Billy and Jamie now; I know its harsh, but that's test rugby; oh and Owen's 10 m for dissent/dumbass. Though that DG was spectacular- where's that been for 11 years

Although Kitshoff is a good scrummager, Nche’s a fekking beast. Sinckler actually didn’t disgrace himself tbf but he was going backwards mostly. Ironic that it was the other side of the scrum that produced the crucial pen. I doubt a knackered Cole would’ve done any better against Nche. Annoying that scrum went sideways, not round or initially one way. In my book a sideways scrum that doesn’t go forwards or backwards or wheels is just a scrum, requiring no pen. Ben Kay offering front row knowledge was and remains comical.

He did pack down behind truly exceptional scrummagers during his career. He might have picked up a thing or two along the way.

Beasties wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:07 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:22 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 7:27 am

Martin is also a hell of a scrummager to have behind you as a prop.

I'd never considered him as a tight head lock before tbh, but I'd hope he sticks there, rather than fannying around with 6. Drop off when Chessum came on and then when Cole came off was noticeable. That said, it was Genge that was penalised 3 times I think- the last one was pretty comical looking at the angle of Koch (oo er), a loosehead simply can't 'create' that angle. But the game should have been beyond SA by then- I'm looking at Billy and Jamie now; I know its harsh, but that's test rugby; oh and Owen's 10 m for dissent/dumbass. Though that DG was spectacular- where's that been for 11 years

Although Kitshoff is a good scrummager, Nche’s a fekking beast. Sinckler actually didn’t disgrace himself tbf but he was going backwards mostly. Ironic that it was the other side of the scrum that produced the crucial pen. I doubt a knackered Cole would’ve done any better against Nche. Annoying that scrum went sideways, not round or initially one way. In my book a sideways scrum that doesn’t go forwards or backwards or wheels is just a scrum, requiring no pen. Ben Kay offering front row knowledge was and remains comical.

Big D wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 2:54 pm Key moment for me was ignoring a huge overlap for Marler to hit it up then Farrell chipped through. Using the overlap could have put it beyond SA.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 2:58 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 2:54 pm Key moment for me was ignoring a huge overlap for Marler to hit it up then Farrell chipped through. Using the overlap could have put it beyond SA.

IIRC correctly that was the one Arendse had well covered but then dropped it, prompting cries from Dallaglio of glorious game management by Farrell.

Big D wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 3:12 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 2:58 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 2:54 pm Key moment for me was ignoring a huge overlap for Marler to hit it up then Farrell chipped through. Using the overlap could have put it beyond SA.

IIRC correctly that was the one Arendse had well covered but then dropped it, prompting cries from Dallaglio of glorious game management by Farrell.

It was. IIRC it was a 4 or 5 on 1 if the passes go.

Although to be fair the key moment was probably SA hooking Kibbok after 30. He was very poor.

Some nations won't admit it but WR need a strong England and there are some good players to come in too. There are some exciting signs in some positions.

The staff can't fool themselves into thinking a good account on a rainy night against a team playing a very very limited gameplan provides the gameplan for the future. Kick, chase, defend with no variation won't work against those sides with any regularity.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 3:44 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 3:12 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 2:58 pm

IIRC correctly that was the one Arendse had well covered but then dropped it, prompting cries from Dallaglio of glorious game management by Farrell.

It was. IIRC it was a 4 or 5 on 1 if the passes go.

Although to be fair the key moment was probably SA hooking Kibbok after 30. He was very poor.

Some nations won't admit it but WR need a strong England and there are some good players to come in too. There are some exciting signs in some positions.

The staff can't fool themselves into thinking a good account on a rainy night against a team playing a very very limited gameplan provides the gameplan for the future. Kick, chase, defend with no variation won't work against those sides with any regularity.

Borthwick said after Tigers won the league he wasn't happy with the tactics and that he wanted to add more layers to the attack. I suspect it'll be the same with England. Get basics in place and strong first and then add to the attack from that base.

Actually having his attack coach in post should help with that.