RugbyRebels

I do see us winning, actually...

Having a fit BillyV and Manu to call on will help. It just remains to be seen if we go with Wilson or Shields (or even Dombrandt!). Wilson deserves his spot.

The other question is Ford or Farrell. I know Renniks said let's not talk about personnel, but when 3 personnel changes can make such a huge difference...

Ford, Farrell, Tuilagi may be a pretty well balanced backline. But then, I'd rather have Ford, Toomua, Tuilagi and look where that's got Leicester (caveat that everything else in their game is wrong...).

Too soon for Dombrandt. Post World-Cup maybe, depending on conditioning and how he navigates second season syndrome.

I’m a fan of his, but Quins are set up to play to his strengths. England wouldn’t do that. At the moment he can put in 80mins worth of hard carrying and some decent defensive work, but Clifford and Chisholm have been doing most of the heavy lifting to free him up to carry. He’ll need to show he can do a bit more of the donkey work to be a serious option when he’s potentially going to be competing with the likes of Hill, Willis and possibly Underhill at 6.

Digby wrote:

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:But I do tend myself to look at selection, tactics and execution rather than results, and then judge. Mostly England are found wanting. Nonetheless there's no need to be overtly worried about a trip to Dublin, there might be reasonable concern we'll play like England, but that's a different thing

It's a bit of a funny way to look at things - as long as we don't play the way we always do, there's no reason to be worried. I can respect it though - better than the bitter nihilism I find myself sinking into.

Puja

Even when we play the way we do games against this Ireland tend to be close, win or lose. So I'll comeback to they're hardly such a strong side we need be worried, and they are being hyped beyond what looks their actual ability

Others may not agree we'd be favourites if we performed well, but this isn't a trip to Auckland with a back three of Wilson, Lomu and Cullen running the ball back

But neither is it a trip to Dublin with Hill, Back, Dallaglio on our side!

Puja

I'm sure they're all on our side, if not in it. Also I am not claiming were strong favourites, merely we're only going to play Ireland and if we get things right (and I agree we mostly don't) we're in my estimation favourites rather than likely to be competitive

Bit early for huffing glue isn't it? Favourites?

The notion we're not favourites is to me a similar acceptance of inadequacy that sees us with Hartley, Robshaw (@7), locks in the backrow, Care starting

Talking of which, will Daly return to the wing with Ashton at fullback?

The notion that we are favourites seems like classic English exceptionalism - that we should automatically be the best and that any failures are due to us falling below par, rather than any possibility that we may not have the best players or that someone else might have better.

Puja

Or one had looked at both England and Ireland and concluded one side could and should beat the other, the point was even made I wouldn't make England favourites against all teams

Digby wrote:Or one had looked at both England and Ireland and concluded one side could and should beat the other, the point was even made I wouldn't make England favourites against all teams

It's the fact that you've come to that conclusion that I'm taking odds with though. I'm not sure how one reaches the conclusion that England should beat Ireland when Ireland have beaten England the last two times and are deservedly ranked 2 in the world, except by the pre-existing ingrained belief that England are innately better than Ireland at rugby.

"Could", I have no qualms with - we're a good side and it'll be a tight game. "Should" and "favourite" seems a confidence not borne out by recent results.

Puja

Going onto something less ineffable, I do actually expect to see Ashton called up as a 15. While I'd still prefer Brown, we could do worse than Ashton (Daly for instance) - he's actually looked solid enough there for Sale.

Puja

Puja wrote:Going onto something less ineffable, I do actually expect to see Ashton called up as a 15. While I'd still prefer Brown, we could do worse than Ashton (Daly for instance) - he's actually looked solid enough there for Sale.

Puja

Against Ireland, considering how much air they'll put under the ball? Personally would go with Brown against them but maybe Ashton will get a chance to shine.

oldbackrow wrote:

Puja wrote:Going onto something less ineffable, I do actually expect to see Ashton called up as a 15. While I'd still prefer Brown, we could do worse than Ashton (Daly for instance) - he's actually looked solid enough there for Sale.

Puja

Against Ireland, considering how much air they'll put under the ball? Personally would go with Brown against them but maybe Ashton will get a chance to shine.

Like I said, I'd prefer Brown, but I'll take anything but Daly at present. He will get absolutely murdered under the high ball by Ireland.

Puja

I just think Daly looks totally out of confidence. He has thrown some awful passes and taken wrong options just recently so would agree he needs to go back to wing or centre

I think brown has done easily enough to get his spot back.

Puja wrote:

Digby wrote:Or one had looked at both England and Ireland and concluded one side could and should beat the other, the point was even made I wouldn't make England favourites against all teams

It's the fact that you've come to that conclusion that I'm taking odds with though. I'm not sure how one reaches the conclusion that England should beat Ireland when Ireland have beaten England the last two times and are deservedly ranked 2 in the world, except by the pre-existing ingrained belief that England are innately better than Ireland at rugby.

"Could", I have no qualms with - we're a good side and it'll be a tight game. "Should" and "favourite" seems a confidence not borne out by recent results.

Puja

I don't have to go a long way back to when England were the number two side in the world, so that Ireland are currently ranked there and have won a couple of close games doesn’t overly impress me, nor was I impressed with England when they were ranked second

I think if Ireland had shown more ability to read and play against what was against them rather than relying so much on some very prescribed play I'd be more concerned, but like us they haven't. So really that leaves me relying much more on the players available and that leads me to conclude we're favourites, not overwhelming, but by enough I'd go into the game expecting a win not merely looking to be competitive

We have the players to compete with Ireland's front row. If we pick Launchbury and Lawes, we can match Ireland in the second row. If we don't pick Shields, we can achieve par with their back row.

However, with Jones's history of preparing the pack as a whole, can we match Ireland's for 80 minutes' worth of consistent effectiveness and discipline? I doubt it.

oldbackrow wrote:

Puja wrote:Going onto something less ineffable, I do actually expect to see Ashton called up as a 15. While I'd still prefer Brown, we could do worse than Ashton (Daly for instance) - he's actually looked solid enough there for Sale.

Puja

Against Ireland, considering how much air they'll put under the ball? Personally would go with Brown against them but maybe Ashton will get a chance to shine.

Ashton has no real stomach for a fight. He will take the easy way out every time. If he is fielding a kick that looks like he might have to rumble against the opposition to retain possession while his forwards get there, he will fall down or run it over the sideline. I watched that Sale Saracens game last week and his lack of competitive dog was pretty noticeable. Brown may almost comically slow, but he won't lay down nearly as easily as Ashton will. Schmidt will be planning around whoever plays at the back. Ireland are not pretty to watch but they are much better drilled than this Eddie Jones England.

I'd be thrilled if we won in Ireland. That would be a noteworthy result.

But not one that i feel any confidence in us gaining. Right now Ireland are a better side. I'd like to think we can run them close but winning?

fivepointer wrote:I'd be thrilled if we won in Ireland. That would be a noteworthy result.

But not one that i feel any confidence in us gaining. Right now Ireland are a better side. I'd like to think we can run them close but winning?

I see no reason why we cannot, to be honest. Ireland are the better team, but I think we have the better individuals. If we can click better, we could cause them some problems.

Just think of the gainline punching ability in this team...

Mako
George
Sinckler
Launch
Itoje
Wilson
Curry
BillyV
Youngs
Ford
Daly
Farrell
Tuilagi
May
Brown

LCD, Genge, Williams, Lawes, Underhill, Care, Te'o, actually feck...if Watson is out and Coka is out and Nowell is out...Ashton? OK, that's not as strong as it could be.

If we manage to hit rucks with aggression and poise, we could seriously make a dent there.

Stom wrote:

fivepointer wrote:I'd be thrilled if we won in Ireland. That would be a noteworthy result.

But not one that i feel any confidence in us gaining. Right now Ireland are a better side. I'd like to think we can run them close but winning?

I see no reason why we cannot, to be honest. Ireland are the better team, but I think we have the better individuals. If we can click better, we could cause them some problems.

Just think of the gainline punching ability in this team...

Mako
George
Sinckler
Launch
Itoje
Wilson
Curry
BillyV
Youngs
Ford
Daly
Farrell
Tuilagi
May
Brown

LCD, Genge, Williams, Lawes, Underhill, Care, Te'o, actually feck...if Watson is out and Coka is out and Nowell is out...Ashton? OK, that's not as strong as it could be.

If we manage to hit rucks with aggression and poise, we could seriously make a dent there.

If that team turns out, I'd be delighted and be very optimistic about our chances. However, there isn't a cat in hell's chance of that team seeing the light of day. At least three of the good players will get injured between now and then, Shields will play at 6 and push out Curry, Farrell will play 10 instead of Ford and Te'o will be 12, and Daly will play full-back.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Stom wrote:

fivepointer wrote:I'd be thrilled if we won in Ireland. That would be a noteworthy result.

But not one that i feel any confidence in us gaining. Right now Ireland are a better side. I'd like to think we can run them close but winning?

I see no reason why we cannot, to be honest. Ireland are the better team, but I think we have the better individuals. If we can click better, we could cause them some problems.

Just think of the gainline punching ability in this team...

Mako
George
Sinckler
Launch
Itoje
Wilson
Curry
BillyV
Youngs
Ford
Daly
Farrell
Tuilagi
May
Brown

LCD, Genge, Williams, Lawes, Underhill, Care, Te'o, actually feck...if Watson is out and Coka is out and Nowell is out...Ashton? OK, that's not as strong as it could be.

If we manage to hit rucks with aggression and poise, we could seriously make a dent there.

If that team turns out, I'd be delighted and be very optimistic about our chances. However, there isn't a cat in hell's chance of that team seeing the light of day. At least three of the good players will get injured between now and then, Shields will play at 6 and push out Curry, Farrell will play 10 instead of Ford and Te'o will be 12, and Daly will play full-back.

Puja

lol. Yeah, a backline of Farrell, May, Te'o, Tuilagi, Ashton, Daly doesn't fill me with pleasure

Stom wrote:

Puja wrote:

Stom wrote:
I see no reason why we cannot, to be honest. Ireland are the better team, but I think we have the better individuals. If we can click better, we could cause them some problems.

Just think of the gainline punching ability in this team...

Mako
George
Sinckler
Launch
Itoje
Wilson
Curry
BillyV
Youngs
Ford
Daly
Farrell
Tuilagi
May
Brown

LCD, Genge, Williams, Lawes, Underhill, Care, Te'o, actually feck...if Watson is out and Coka is out and Nowell is out...Ashton? OK, that's not as strong as it could be.

If we manage to hit rucks with aggression and poise, we could seriously make a dent there.

If that team turns out, I'd be delighted and be very optimistic about our chances. However, there isn't a cat in hell's chance of that team seeing the light of day. At least three of the good players will get injured between now and then, Shields will play at 6 and push out Curry, Farrell will play 10 instead of Ford and Te'o will be 12, and Daly will play full-back.

Puja

lol. Yeah, a backline of Farrell, May, Te'o, Tuilagi, Ashton, Daly doesn't fill me with pleasure

The only thing stopping that backline from starting against Ireland is one of them getting injured. And if that happened, it'd be to May so we could feel properly sorry for ourselves.

Puja

This needs to stop. Immediately.

Mellsblue wrote:This needs to stop. Immediately.

Brown on the wing.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:This needs to stop. Immediately.

Brown on the wing.

Puja

At least try something believable. Next you’ll be telling me he’s going to put Nowell at 13, Lawes at 6, Wilson at 7 and, hahahah, you’ll laugh at this one, Hartley at 2 as co-capt with Farrell.