RugbyRebels

twitchy wrote:

And that guy is now sacked.

Scrumhead wrote:

padprop wrote:I think anyone who has played alot of rugby will agree with Paolo statements about lack of black players in the skill positions. I think it is a very multi-factorial issue, least of which being that the 9s and 10s who make it professional have usually being playing since they could walk, when neuroplasticity is at its highest, and are more likely to come from families that are rugby mad (Farrell, Ford, Barrett). I imagine for example that rugby isn't as big culturally in minority communities and hence these players will also start later.

Agreed. There is also a lack of role models from a global POV.

With the exception of Romain Ntamack (his paternal grandparents are from Cameroon) and Elton Jantjies, there aren’t any other black 10s playing at test level and not many more starting at club level.

It’s not much different at 9 either. Herschel Jantjies is the only one I can think of!

And you could say that Ntamack's role might not have come about if his dad hadn't been an international...

Well Emile was a winger so while I’m sure he was influential in getting his boys in to the game (his other son is an 8 in the U20 team), he wasn’t really a direct role model for an aspiring 10.

It’s not just UK coaches that are potentially (whether it’s conscious or not) directing black players away from the decision-making positions, it’s is an issue rugby has globally. In South Africa, you have players like Curwin Bosch and Manie Libbok who can play at 10 but mostly play fullback. Embrose Papier Is the only other relatively high profile 9 I can think of there? Not sure in France TBH - I could be missing players, but I don’t recall seeing any black players coming through at 9 or 10. None in Wales, Scotland or Ireland that I’m aware of, although none of those have a high proportion of black players in any position yet (Wales have a few coming through), which is probably more of a reflection on the diversity of their populations in general.

Perhaps if Kyle Eastmond had elected to play 9 (which I think he could have been great at), we might have had an option there, but as it is, there is only really Sam Wolstenholme who I think is mixed race?

Moving forward, I would like to think that coaches are smart enough and aware enough that they’re able to coach players in the positions they’re best suited to, irrespective of any preconceptions based upon racial stereotypes, but without many obvious role models, it is tough.

Scrumhead wrote:Moving forward, I would like to think that coaches are smart enough and aware enough that they’re able to coach players in the positions they’re best suited to, irrespective of any preconceptions based upon racial stereotypes, but without many obvious role models, it is tough.

The thing is that it's not (or at least rarely) a case of conscious bias. It's the little bit of racist brain that we all have from growing up in this kind of society that has internalised prejudices and stereotypes and doesn't even notice it's doing it. It's not "Let's not put him there because black people aren't suited to 10," but "He doesn't feel like a 10 to me," or, "We've got two 10s and Whitey McWhitename feels more consistent, so we'll put the other guy into 15 and see how he goes. He's faster anyway."

It's the same reason the civil service now strips the names from CVs because a John with the same CV as a Nasir was twice as likely to get through the first round of job applications.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:Moving forward, I would like to think that coaches are smart enough and aware enough that they’re able to coach players in the positions they’re best suited to, irrespective of any preconceptions based upon racial stereotypes, but without many obvious role models, it is tough.

The thing is that it's not (or at least rarely) a case of conscious bias. It's the little bit of racist brain that we all have from growing up in this kind of society that has internalised prejudices and stereotypes and doesn't even notice it's doing it. It's not "Let's not put him there because black people aren't suited to 10," but "He doesn't feel like a 10 to me," or, "We've got two 10s and Whitey McWhitename feels more consistent, so we'll put the other guy into 15 and see how he goes. He's faster anyway."

It's the same reason the civil service now strips the names from CVs because a John with the same CV as a Nasir was twice as likely to get through the first round of job applications.

Puja

The difficulty I have with this is job interviewers may be using names as a signal for class (Which is also a deplorable reason to discard someone for a job opportunity), knowing that some minority groups often sit at the bottom of the economic ladder. Either way, it comes back to the tribalism and names that aren't commonly seen in middle class white circles in which the employers inhabit will stick out like a sore thumb, whether it be Nasir or a famous 'chav' name.

"He also showed how harmful giving your child a 'chav' or lower-status name can be. In a study of 55,000 children, the exam marks of those with 'lower-status' names - often spelled in an unusual way or including punctuation - were on average 3 to 5 percentage points lower than siblings with more traditional names. One of the reasons was that teachers had lower expectations of them." - The Guardian

Following on from that, what is the representation in Rugby League, a famously more working class game, like at Stand off and Scrum half? Kyle Eastmond is the first one that comes to mind.

FKAS wrote:

twitchy wrote:

And that guy is now sacked.

A statement from Neil Francis said: “During a podcast for The Left Wing recorded on Wednesday the 14th of July I made comments about the Harlequins and England out-half Marcus Smith where I stated that he had ‘a David Beckham hair style and an Oompa Loompa tan’.

“I was, I suppose making comment on how backs in particular turn out when they enter the field.

“At all stages this is what I meant by those comments.

“Marcus Smith is of English/ Filipino heritage and some of the media comments at the moment have made mention that I have racially abused the player.

“I would never intentionally or wilfully make a comment to disparage somebody on the basis of the colour of anyone’s skin. Never! The comments have been interpreted differently from what I intended and I apologise sincerely for that.

“I fully apologise for any offence taken by the player and his family. I intend to apologise directly to him shortly if he is agreeable. I also apologise to anyone who also took offence to what I said.”

His apologexplanation didn't actually help matters. As I understand it, his argument is basically that he was mistaken because he thought the skin colour was a spray tan rather than his ethnicity, and he just wanted to call Smith a ponce rather than anything racist.

That's... that's not actually a huge amount better, Neil.

Puja

Puja wrote:

FKAS wrote:

twitchy wrote:

And that guy is now sacked.

A statement from Neil Francis said: “During a podcast for The Left Wing recorded on Wednesday the 14th of July I made comments about the Harlequins and England out-half Marcus Smith where I stated that he had ‘a David Beckham hair style and an Oompa Loompa tan’.

“I was, I suppose making comment on how backs in particular turn out when they enter the field.

“At all stages this is what I meant by those comments.

“Marcus Smith is of English/ Filipino heritage and some of the media comments at the moment have made mention that I have racially abused the player.

“I would never intentionally or wilfully make a comment to disparage somebody on the basis of the colour of anyone’s skin. Never! The comments have been interpreted differently from what I intended and I apologise sincerely for that.

“I fully apologise for any offence taken by the player and his family. I intend to apologise directly to him shortly if he is agreeable. I also apologise to anyone who also took offence to what I said.”

His apologexplanation didn't actually help matters. As I understand it, his argument is basically that he was mistaken because he thought the skin colour was a spray tan rather than his ethnicity, and he just wanted to call Smith a ponce rather than anything racist.

That's... that's not actually a huge amount better, Neil.

Puja

Ah the " I'm not racist I'm an ignorant dick" defence.

“I would never intentionally or wilfully make a comment to disparage somebody on the basis of the colour of anyone’s skin. Never! The comments have been interpreted differently from what I intended and I apologise sincerely for that.


You kind of fucking did, you gumby.

No one has sympathy for Francis because he's Neil Francis, but I suspect a good number have mocked the Essex/Cardiff cancer bed tan

Digby wrote:No one has sympathy for Francis because he's Neil Francis, but I suspect a good number have mocked the Essex/Cardiff cancer bed tan

and? Justice for fake tans? You are sticking up for that dinosaur?

morepork wrote:

Digby wrote:No one has sympathy for Francis because he's Neil Francis, but I suspect a good number have mocked the Essex/Cardiff cancer bed tan

and? Justice for fake tans? You are sticking up for that dinosaur?

when noting no one has sympathy for Francis I had meant no one has sympathy for Francis, rather than trying to defend him. Francis has long been an unpleasant arse, and doesn't offer anything on the rugby front either, an Irish version of Mick Skinner (not sure if Skinner has a glass jaw tbf)

but mocking fake tans is pretty standard behaviour, and not just cancer bed tans, the spray tan gets roundly derided too.

it doesn't seem especially credible that Francis didn't know Smith wasn't of mixed heritage given he does rather look like he might be of mixed heritage, but then Cipriani does too and that fooled some.

I feel like suggesting someone shouldn't appear for a sporting team because you don't like their appearance is slightly different to more broadly mocking fake tans though, without possibly ever being able to say how serious the suggestion/joke actually was. Did people ever say Henson shouldn't play for the Lions? I have no idea.

That would be taking him at face value about not knowing though, as you say.

I hope Smith is able to ignore all of this and concentrate on what he's doing with the Lions at the moment.

Which is hopefully making Owen Farrell look like a womble in training.

Without doubt people said Henson shouldn't play for the Lions, and sometimes derided his orange tan drawing a line from that to him being effete as a player. Back in 2005 I've heard some quite famous names stand up in front of an audience and pontificate on just that subject.

My guess is most of them were employ humour, really all of them probably. And it wasn't exactly an unheard comment among the fans, Lions or NZ

Digby wrote:Without doubt people said Henson shouldn't play for the Lions, and sometimes derided his orange tan drawing a line from that to him being effete as a player. Back in 2005 I've heard some quite famous names stand up in front of an audience and pontificate on just that subject.

My guess is most of them were employ humour, really all of them probably. And it wasn't exactly an unheard comment among the fans, Lions or NZ

Really? That's a new one on me.
Disruptive influence - yes
More focussed on the celebrity stuff - yes
Maybe a bit vain - yes
Just don't like him - yes

Effete? - not heard that accusation before

Which Tyler wrote:

Digby wrote:Without doubt people said Henson shouldn't play for the Lions, and sometimes derided his orange tan drawing a line from that to him being effete as a player. Back in 2005 I've heard some quite famous names stand up in front of an audience and pontificate on just that subject.

My guess is most of them were employ humour, really all of them probably. And it wasn't exactly an unheard comment among the fans, Lions or NZ

Really? That's a new one on me.
Disruptive influence - yes
More focussed on the celebrity stuff - yes
Maybe a bit vain - yes
Just don't like him - yes

Effete? - not heard that accusation before

None of those descriptors might allow for one to consider/call someone affected?

Not that I exactly agree when it comes to Henson, I'm a big fan of Henson as a player. Still, he was often the topic of the chat, especially once Jonny was picked having not played in months, whether the after dinner circuit or in the pub, and he was derided about as much as he was celebrated. Or there was another take from the likes of Ian Roberston when public speaking to make it about nationality (and a little bit about 6N form), but whatever Henson came up as a subject, a lot

If you meant "affected", there are better words to use; like the word "affected" - which doesn't carry any (strong) insulting implication of being effeminite, weak or ineffective. Though I guess it would need a few words saying in what way he was affected. Mind - that's still needed if you just meant it as a synonym of "affected"

Some of the comments would have entailed a notion that because he was orange and had gelled hair he was effeminate, and that would have been intended as a pejorative. Some of that would have had some bitterness behind it, some of it would I'm sure have had nothing more than 'banter' behind it along the lines of why do backs where head guards, when will forwards get to learning the C in their ABCs

Then those criticisms stand as being new to me; and not related to the examples I gave that you felt were covered by "effete"

Digby has got something of a point - while Francis is a massive cock, it is not unusual banter to imply a back is a girl who pays more attention to their looks than the game. It probably shouldn't be and it's something which I will work on in my own speech, but I'd be lying if I said I'd never done it.

I don't know Henson's necessarily the best example of it though, although that probably has more to do with him having established his manliness credentials early on by manhandling Tait.

Puja

Yep, that's fair - I was zoning in specifically on criticisms of Henson, rather than generic jests about backs

That game where Henson announced himself on Tait was obviously awful for all sorts of reasons. My main memory was watching it in a largely empty Belfast pub. For once there was another England fan there. It was nice to have some support for once, but as Wales and Henson became more and more dominant the Englishwoman started making loads of weird comments that it was unfair because Henson was "Indian" often looking to me for solidarity. It was awful and capped a vile afternoon.

Henson definitely got stick for his lifestyle and sartorial choices. I also got the impression that Henson wasn't the smartest (even if an excellent player) so he was perhaps easy to mock*. There is an issue within rugby (at least in my experience) around homophobic language and it's definitely something that is very easy to lapse into e.g. describing backs.

*Didn't he make his rugby league debut recently after getting asked to give it a go at the pub he owns. Anybody see that?

Mr Mwenda wrote:There is an issue within rugby (at least in my experience) around homophobic language and it's definitely something that is very easy to lapse into e.g. describing backs.

Oh yeah, it's definitely widespread, especially at community level. I try and challenge it in a jokey way at my club ("No, *I'm* gay. Don't imply I'm like *him* - I work for a living!"), but it's around a lot - nothing abusive, but just casual "Don't be a bender" sort of stuff.

Puja

Good on you, Puja, keep trying.

Puja wrote:

Mr Mwenda wrote:There is an issue within rugby (at least in my experience) around homophobic language and it's definitely something that is very easy to lapse into e.g. describing backs.

Oh yeah, it's definitely widespread, especially at community level. I try and challenge it in a jokey way at my club ("No, *I'm* gay. Don't imply I'm like *him* - I work for a living!"), but it's around a lot - nothing abusive, but just casual "Don't be a bender" sort of stuff.

Puja

In the kids teams you get far less these days of people shouting at those who've missed a tackle and calling them soft, gay, queer, a girl, a jessy... then again you do get much more backchat to the refs. Some behaviour has improved, some has worsened

Whether the forwards are thick tag is still quite the same I don't know. There's certainly a fair bit of fat shaming for the larger players

As ever we rationalise the abuse we hand out as individuals