RugbyRebels

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:24 pm**

Well this got a laugh. Did it get posted already?

England reached the semi-finals by beating an extremely poor Argentina, Japan, Chile, Samoa and Fiji. This is not the stuff from which legends are gilded. In large part it was the product of a ludicrously soft draw softened still further by the early elimination of Australia. And for all the drama and gallantry, they still lost against the first elite side they came up against, with a depth of talent on the bench of which English rugby could only dream. So what, exactly, is being celebrated here?

Certainly not the rugby itself. Stylistically, the gulf between England and the very best in the world has rarely been wider. England kicked away 93% of their possession on Saturday night, and spent a total of 73 seconds in the South Africa 22. They registered the slowest ruck speed of the entire tournament (narrowly beating the record mark they set against Samoa). It was the first time at this World Cup that a team played an entire match without registering a single line break.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... SApp_Other

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:26 pm**

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 1:55 pm
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 1:21 pm
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 1:00 pm

I can’t imagine Soiled Bananahammock is much better.
If so, I can't see how he can get the best out of players. Maybe I'm being unrealistic to think players want to use their brains. I confess to not knowing any current international players personally.
I've said before, not sure its the brightest of bunches, but that's remote observation. Slightly Biased is a cautious man, and clearly only believes in incremental development, and until the lineout and maul is perfect don't expect to see much more!

Agreed, and they've been trained meticulously by Jones (stick not carrot) not to use their brains, for that might lead to deviation from 'the plan'. Deviation gets you dropped! Dropped means no caps, means no money.

This is why I think it will take quite a while, and some fresh blood, especially in leadership positions, to break this out of them squad. I think Borthwick, for all of his caution, isn't a play by numbers kind of coach. At Tigers you'd say he was initially, until he got a few more layers sorted and then let things develop on pitch more in the moment on top of an overall plan. There was an element of freedom for the players. Who knows if he'd have let the players fully take the reins in time.

He strikes me as meticulous but not overbearing.

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:27 pm**

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:26 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 1:55 pm
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 1:21 pm

If so, I can't see how he can get the best out of players. Maybe I'm being unrealistic to think players want to use their brains. I confess to not knowing any current international players personally.
I've said before, not sure its the brightest of bunches, but that's remote observation. Slightly Biased is a cautious man, and clearly only believes in incremental development, and until the lineout and maul is perfect don't expect to see much more!
Agreed, and they've been trained meticulously by Jones (stick not carrot) not to use their brains, for that might lead to deviation from 'the plan'. Deviation gets you dropped! Dropped means no caps, means no money.

This is why I think it will take quite a while, and some fresh blood, especially in leadership positions, to break this out of them squad. I think Borthwick, for all of his caution, isn't a play by numbers kind of coach. At Tigers you'd say he was initially, until he got a few more layers sorted and then let things develop on pitch more in the moment on top of an overall plan. There was an element of freedom for the players. Who knows if he'd have let the players fully take the reins in time.

He strikes me as meticulous but not overbearing.

yus #characterless

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:29 pm**

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:24 pm Well this got a laugh. Did it get posted already?

England reached the semi-finals by beating an extremely poor Argentina, Japan, Chile, Samoa and Fiji. This is not the stuff from which legends are gilded. In large part it was the product of a ludicrously soft draw softened still further by the early elimination of Australia. And for all the drama and gallantry, they still lost against the first elite side they came up against, with a depth of talent on the bench of which English rugby could only dream. So what, exactly, is being celebrated here?

Certainly not the rugby itself. Stylistically, the gulf between England and the very best in the world has rarely been wider. England kicked away 93% of their possession on Saturday night, and spent a total of 73 seconds in the South Africa 22. They registered the slowest ruck speed of the entire tournament (narrowly beating the record mark they set against Samoa). It was the first time at this World Cup that a team played an entire match without registering a single line break.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... SApp_Other

Don't think it's been posted already. Makes I laugh, cause it almost worked. And arguably should have but for some small errors / margins. The No1 team in the world was almost undone by stoic defence and effort, and a fair bit of nous in nullifying them.

It is not sustainable, but in terms of polishing a turd for one game it almost ended up shiny.

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:30 pm**

Articles like that make we want to celebrate our narrow defeat even more.

France, playing at home, only had 2 tough games. Won one then lost the next to the same team as England and by the same margin. Feck how many line breaks they made they crumbled to a bench they could only dream of!

Tosser

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:31 pm**

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:27 pm
Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:26 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 1:55 pm

I've said before, not sure its the brightest of bunches, but that's remote observation. Slightly Biased is a cautious man, and clearly only believes in incremental development, and until the lineout and maul is perfect don't expect to see much more!
Agreed, and they've been trained meticulously by Jones (stick not carrot) not to use their brains, for that might lead to deviation from 'the plan'. Deviation gets you dropped! Dropped means no caps, means no money.

This is why I think it will take quite a while, and some fresh blood, especially in leadership positions, to break this out of them squad. I think Borthwick, for all of his caution, isn't a play by numbers kind of coach. At Tigers you'd say he was initially, until he got a few more layers sorted and then let things develop on pitch more in the moment on top of an overall plan. There was an element of freedom for the players. Who knows if he'd have let the players fully take the reins in time.

He strikes me as meticulous but not overbearing.
yus #characterless

He certainly has (as a player) and does (as a coach) come across as dull as anything. He seems to like a laugh with the players, but he's not winning any personality contest. I think the best thing he did as a player was to get called a cunt by Alfie Thomas.

It is where the other coaches need a bit more dynamism and outgoing personality.

He's the antithesis of Jones in some regards, and that's fine by me. That little gremlin was a prize cunt!

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:38 pm**

This thread is not cheering me up much. It is talking about England's head coach, for pity's sake. Can't we get a decent one after 20 years of crap ones? Sigh!

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:42 pm**

p/d wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:30 pm Articles like that make we want to celebrate our narrow defeat even more.

France, playing at home, only had 2 tough games. Won one then lost the next to the same team as England and by the same margin. Feck how many line breaks they made they crumbled to a bench they could only dream of!

Tosser

It was probably a bit unfair posting that quote in isolation, to be fair, but it did make me laugh.

I was very happy with the grit (or dog or fight or whatever you want to call it) shown in the SA game, but I think we saw pretty much the limit of what it could achieve. I'm not convinced that SA showed much of what we saw vs France though. It would have been cries of "they already played their final" if they'd lost.

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:44 pm**

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:38 pm This thread is not cheering me up much. It is talking about England's head coach, for pity's sake. Can't we get a decent one after 20 years of crap ones? Sigh!

He may be a decent one yet, but he has inherited a sack of shit from the utter genius that is Eddie Jones with a somewhat limited selection of coaches to choose from to bring in in the immediate aftermath. Time will tell.

He's not a personality, that's for sure. But then you don't hire Borthwick for his stand up routine.

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:08 pm**

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:44 pm
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:38 pm This thread is not cheering me up much. It is talking about England's head coach, for pity's sake. Can't we get a decent one after 20 years of crap ones? Sigh!
He may be a decent one yet, but he has inherited a sack of shit from the utter genius that is Eddie Jones with a somewhat limited selection of coaches to choose from to bring in in the immediate aftermath. Time will tell.

He's not a personality, that's for sure. But then you don't hire Borthwick for his stand up routine.

But, you'd hope the job was attractive enough for the RFU to get someone good at the whole package. Character flaws would not normally set a candidate top of the applicants' list.

He could turn out well but I just hope the RFU have laid down a measurable set of objectives within a reasonable time scale.

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:08 pm**

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:44 pm
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:38 pm This thread is not cheering me up much. It is talking about England's head coach, for pity's sake. Can't we get a decent one after 20 years of crap ones? Sigh!
He may be a decent one yet, but he has inherited a sack of shit from the utter genius that is Eddie Jones with a somewhat limited selection of coaches to choose from to bring in in the immediate aftermath. Time will tell.

He's not a personality, that's for sure. But then you don't hire Borthwick for his stand up routine.

And let’s not forget how much of his coaching apprenticeship has occurred under Jones. Eng wasn’t his first rodeo in that regard.

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:12 pm**

p/d wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:30 pm Articles like that make we want to celebrate our narrow defeat even more.

France, playing at home, only had 2 tough games. Won one then lost the next to the same team as England and by the same margin. Feck how many line breaks they made they crumbled to a bench they could only dream of!

Tosser

Ditto, its a whole bunch of cliches tbh.

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:16 pm**

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:44 pm
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:38 pm This thread is not cheering me up much. It is talking about England's head coach, for pity's sake. Can't we get a decent one after 20 years of crap ones? Sigh!
He may be a decent one yet, but he has inherited a sack of shit from the utter genius that is Eddie Jones with a somewhat limited selection of coaches to choose from to bring in in the immediate aftermath. Time will tell.

He's not a personality, that's for sure. But then you don't hire Borthwick for his stand up routine.

I do think you need A personality for this job- he clearly hates the press q and a's, but its a big part of the job like it or not. And you also need to be able lead, and again personality is a part of it.

Feedback from the pre RWC camps is that its pretty joyless.....but actually the players feel like they are being stretched and getting a lot out of it development wise. But that is different to building a team.

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:22 pm**

Does anyone know what Felix Jones is like? We now know that Sack Backandcrack is the analytical genius and Sinfield the motivator, can F. Jones bring the levity/fun that all squads need when they live on top of each other for weeks on end.

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:41 pm**

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:16 pm
Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:44 pm
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:38 pm This thread is not cheering me up much. It is talking about England's head coach, for pity's sake. Can't we get a decent one after 20 years of crap ones? Sigh!
He may be a decent one yet, but he has inherited a sack of shit from the utter genius that is Eddie Jones with a somewhat limited selection of coaches to choose from to bring in in the immediate aftermath. Time will tell.

He's not a personality, that's for sure. But then you don't hire Borthwick for his stand up routine.
I do think you need A personality for this job- he clearly hates the press q and a's, but its a big part of the job like it or not. And you also need to be able lead, and again personality is a part of it.

Feedback from the pre RWC camps is that its pretty joyless.....but actually the players feel like they are being stretched and getting a lot out of it development wise. But that is different to building a team.

I don’t think it helps when the captain is monosyllabic too. I’m sure they both like a good jape and all, but they’re not going to steal the party limelight or win a primary school public speaking competition.

The main thing now is time and a refresh, not just in the squad but in the leadership cadre.

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:45 pm**

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:41 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:16 pm
Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:44 pm

He may be a decent one yet, but he has inherited a sack of shit from the utter genius that is Eddie Jones with a somewhat limited selection of coaches to choose from to bring in in the immediate aftermath. Time will tell.

He's not a personality, that's for sure. But then you don't hire Borthwick for his stand up routine.
I do think you need A personality for this job- he clearly hates the press q and a's, but its a big part of the job like it or not. And you also need to be able lead, and again personality is a part of it.

Feedback from the pre RWC camps is that its pretty joyless.....but actually the players feel like they are being stretched and getting a lot out of it development wise. But that is different to building a team.
I don’t think it helps when the captain is monosyllabic too. I’m sure they both like a good jape and all, but they’re not going to steal the party limelight or win a primary school public speaking competition.

The main thing now is time and a refresh, not just in the squad but in the leadership cadre.

It definitely helps the camp if the outward impression is confidence and being comfortable in your own skin.

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:07 pm**

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:12 pm
p/d wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:30 pm Articles like that make we want to celebrate our narrow defeat even more.

France, playing at home, only had 2 tough games. Won one then lost the next to the same team as England and by the same margin. Feck how many line breaks they made they crumbled to a bench they could only dream of!

Tosser
Ditto, its a whole bunch of cliches tbh.

The bit I posted or something else in there?

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:08 pm**

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:07 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:12 pm
p/d wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:30 pm Articles like that make we want to celebrate our narrow defeat even more.

France, playing at home, only had 2 tough games. Won one then lost the next to the same team as England and by the same margin. Feck how many line breaks they made they crumbled to a bench they could only dream of!

Tosser
Ditto, its a whole bunch of cliches tbh.
The bit I posted or something else in there?

The article

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:11 pm**

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:08 pm
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:07 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:12 pm

Ditto, its a whole bunch of cliches tbh.
The bit I posted or something else in there?
The article

Yeah, I don't know why I expected a more specific answer.

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:13 pm**

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:11 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:08 pm
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:07 pm

The bit I posted or something else in there?
The article
Yeah, I don't know why I expected a more specific answer.

well just read the first paragraph of the article. Albeit cliches for effect. Its a smart ar5e article frankly.

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:14 pm**

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:22 pm Does anyone know what Felix Jones is like? We now know that Sack Backandcrack is the analytical genius and Sinfield the motivator, can F. Jones bring the levity/fun that all squads need when they live on top of each other for weeks on end.

According to all the articles, it's Aled Walthers who brings the joy and fun. Seems odd from a fitness coach, but hopefully it's true.

Puja

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:21 pm**

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:13 pm
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:11 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:08 pm

The article
Yeah, I don't know why I expected a more specific answer.
well just read the first paragraph of the article. Albeit cliches for effect. Its a smart ar5e article frankly.

Lol. That's quite a big caveat.

Anyway, doesn't seem to be much that hasn't been said on here too, but thought those stats in the SA game were kind of damning.

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:24 pm**

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:14 pm
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:22 pm Does anyone know what Felix Jones is like? We now know that Sack Backandcrack is the analytical genius and Sinfield the motivator, can F. Jones bring the levity/fun that all squads need when they live on top of each other for weeks on end.
According to all the articles, it's Aled Walthers who brings the joy and fun. Seems odd from a fitness coach, but hopefully it's true.

Puja

Bloody hell, I’d forgotten about Aled Walters.

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:32 pm**

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:24 pm
Puja wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:14 pm
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:22 pm Does anyone know what Felix Jones is like? We now know that Sack Backandcrack is the analytical genius and Sinfield the motivator, can F. Jones bring the levity/fun that all squads need when they live on top of each other for weeks on end.
According to all the articles, it's Aled Walthers who brings the joy and fun. Seems odd from a fitness coach, but hopefully it's true.

Puja
Bloody hell, I’d forgotten about Aled Walters.

How can you forget his 'Wings of a Dove'?

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:50 pm**

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:21 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:13 pm
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:11 pm

Yeah, I don't know why I expected a more specific answer.
well just read the first paragraph of the article. Albeit cliches for effect. Its a smart ar5e article frankly.
Lol. That's quite a big caveat.

Anyway, doesn't seem to be much that hasn't been said on here too, but thought those stats in the SA game were kind of damning.

But the rest was full of them (it wasn’t a caveat, more a style indication) and the stats were hardly a revelation- everyone knows our ruck speed is pants and that we struggle with line breaks (not unrelated), and that’s why we played that way, one might surmise. Lazy journalism. Not criticising you but him.

RugbyRebels

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